stunt_muppet | This fandom brings out the best and the worst in me.

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This fandom brings out the best and the worst in me.

(last post for the day, I swear)

I'm done studying now. I know my iamb from my trochee and my sestina from my villanelle and I am Generally Prepared.

I will soon sit down and get to writing, replying to comments, and replying to posts.

But first, I just have to say...

I try not to be a Classic Who snob. Really, I do. I respect that a lot of people prefer the new series, or have no desire to even see the old one. I realize this.

But DAMN IT, New!fen. Don't pass judgement on the fourty years of canon you've never even seen based on your own fleeting impressions of what it might have been like.

Ahem. A bit of explanation:

I was reading the reaction posts for "Parters in Crime" today (yes, without having seen the episode. Bad me.). Naturally, this meant that many people discussing it were New!fen.

It also meant that I ended up wanting to stab half of them in the face.

In the course of discussing That Spoiler, there were many harsh words spoken and accusations thrown, and of course people started leaping to the defense of their Favoritest Companion Evar/the idea that the companion MUST worship the Doctor and everything he does/the unapologetically sexist directions that the New Series has taken recently.

And someone let loose with that old standby: "At least Donna/Rose wasn't a shrieky, hysterical, helpless woman like the old companions."

You have to understand: this wasn't on my flist. I didn't even know these people. I STILL had to physically restrain myself from releasing a whole big brick of capslocky rage the minute those words were spoken.

The Old!School Companions. Were Not. Helpless. Screamers. In fact, I'd say the Classic series is better to most of its women than the New Series is. At least in the Old series, the companion's lives weren't EMPTY and MEANINGLESS without the Doctor. At least he didn't "ruin" them by not Wuvving Them Back. At least they didn't define themselves by romantic attachment. Just because YOU, dearest new!fan, can't imagine that there could have been a viable female character back in those Horrible Backward Seventies doesn't mean there weren't any.

I'm sorry, but every time someone makes a comment like that, I have to hold back the urge to tie them to a chair, tape their eyes open, and force-feed them Zoe/Liz/Jo/Sarah Jane/Leela/Nyssa/Ace episodes until they a)scream for mercy or b) worship Verity Lambert like a GOD.

ACTUALLY WATCH SOME CLASSIC WHO AND THEN COME TALK TO ME. Fucking noob.

Oh, and then there's the charming sentiment that the new series has to have romance in it, or they'd lose 98% of the female audience. Gosh, I love remembering that the only reason I'd ever watch a TV show is because there's an idealized romantic dreamworld I can insert my unfulfilled and lost little feminine self into.

I try not be snobbish, but it's kind of hard when the New Who wing of fandom is FULL OF FUCKING MORONS.

If anyone needs me, I'll be watching Zoe save the Earth in thirty seconds flat. Or watching Liz Shaw or Jo Grant rescue the Doctor AGAIN. Or watching Ace McShane clobber a Dalek with a baseball bat.

*grumble*

[ETA] But no matter how mad I get, there will always be things that restore my faith in fandom.

Like the fact that the

doctorwhocommunity has a Pervy Doctor Fanciers tag.

And that if you go about seven posts down, you start hitting the Pervy Doctor Fanciers picspams - one for each Doctor, including the actors in other roles.

I am not making this up.

There's the added bonus that, if/once I start doing Academy-Era fanart, I have myself a handy-dandy Theta Sigma, all ready to dress in Prydonian robes and go. Now all I need to do is assemble myself a Koschei out of bits of Derek Jacobi, John Simm, and Roger Delgado and I'll be set to go!

Also it turns out my test is on Wednesday. I feel better. :D

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ACTUALLY WATCH SOME CLASSIC WHO AND THEN COME TALK TO ME. Fucking noob.

Amen and Hallelujah.

You have done an excellent job of explaining exactly why I avoid new skool fandom like the plague and have buried myself in the loving busom of old-skool fandom never to look back.

I want to participate in New fandom, I really do, because I do love Nine and Ten and Rose and Martha and Donna et al, but...but...

...but why don't I ever run into the reasonable ones when browsing? I know they exist; I know some of them. :(

...but why don't I ever run into the reasonable ones when browsing? I know they exist; I know some of them. :(

I think it's because that part of fandom is just too big and unwieldy. Any fandom that reaches that kind of critical mass is going to be full of wank and moronity. It's just the nature of the beast. As much as I also enjoy new who (I mean that's where I started, after all), participation would not be worth my sanity or the increase in my blood pressure. So, I stick to my flist. It's just safer that way.

Excellent point. That was my approach with some of my older, smaller fandoms; it's starting to look like a good idea for this one too. Sigh.

Yeeeeeah, see, this is why I only read friends' episode reactions. I'll disagree with stuff sometimes, but they don't talk out of their asses. It's nice.

If you have no interest in the new series, that's one thing. (I judge you, but that's still not the point.) But please refrain from talking about shit you know nothing of. This applies to anything in the world, not only Who.

And yes, even if they did scream and twist their ankles, I'd still prefer it over romance=idol worship. *shudders* (Also, bitches, I'll have you know, when Susan Foreman twists an ankle, SHE TAKES A BRIDGE DOWN WITH HER. XP)

I feel like making a gratuitous list of awesome girl companion moments to spam up your comments with. Lemme know if you're interested. ;d

By "new series," I meant "old series." WOW.

And I love the new series. I do. It's fun, some of the plots are quite amazing, Nine and Simm are my favorite Doctor and Master respectively (and I say this after having done a lot of delving!), Martha's really really high on my companion list, I just always get so excited about it. But knocking everything else down to support it is so unnecessary. And I do appreciate how old series is actually much more understated and takes itself less seriously.

Put them together, though, the whole thing leaves me in awe. But every part of it is important to that!

Yes! The new series at its best is every bit as good as the old, and it's not like the old series was beyond reproach - hardly. And Nine and Ten were my first Doctors; if I hadn't loved them, I'd never have felt the need to explore further into the series' past. But generalizing blindly about the old series to make the new series look better (as opposed to actual legitimate criticism)? Not cool.

And a list of Awesome Female Companion Moments sounds lovely. I'd even say it's an excellent project for

loves_them_all if we weren't already in the midst of Companion Love Month.

Oh, they've done the "favorite companion moments" list before. XD I just never get tired of making lists in general, and when you've got an insanely huge canon and cast of thousands, it's just so easy. =D

Perhaps I'll make a long post and ~~emotionally manipulate~~ ~~demand~~ urge others to contribute...

Perhaps I'll make a long post and emotionally manipulate demand urge others to contribute...

YES YES YES!!!

::ahem:: Sorry to barge in, but I strongly endorse this plan.

Hee! Awesome, so I'm making the list right now. Which reminds me, I should open it up to public commenting probably...

I also wholly endorse this endeavor. :D

Not to mention Babs, running over Daleks with a truck and such!

As one of those psychotic people who enjoys both New and Classic Who with a rabid sort of squee, I get extremely annoyed when one side bashes the other without having done their homework. Tsk tsk.

Oh, and then there's the charming sentiment that the new series has to have romance in it, or they'd lose 98% of the female audience.

Those posts always crack me up, because the people who honestly believe that sort of thing are the ones that would leave in just such a case, and fandom's probably better without them, anyway. (And that's the main problem with Nu!Who fandom at the moment: most of the fans will have forgotten all about it in favour of the Next Big Thing by next year - it's like when Old- and New-School Whoers get into fights over old quotes, and then realise that all the people involved left fandom aeons ago. Give it time to mature.) But hey, I was a new school fan with only the vaguest of interests in old school until recently. Edumacating the populace is a good approach, too. *dons Classic Who missionary garb*

But yeah, another pet peeve - Who fandom is, not to put too fine a point on it, pretty dang full of misogyny to begin with. Doesn't help that all the lead writers seem to be the same way.

So, yeah. Not snobbery, not offensive to this New School fan. It's just ignorance - they'll either watch Old School and be able to qualify their statements, or they won't and they'll wander out of fandom eventually. So it goes. *shrugs*

I cannot believe I forgot Barbara. Thanks for correcting this gross oversight. :D

And, speaking as someone who only fairly recently delved into the old series as well, I can say that both Old and New have their faults and I do wish that was taken into consideration more often. There's no need to tear one down to make the other look good! Really!

Who fandom is, not to put too fine a point on it, pretty dang full of misogyny to begin with.

Which strikes me as really, really bizarre, considering how many women I've met in the fandom. Hmm.

I'm glad I didn't come across as snobby - I was worried about how this was going to sound.

Oof. See, this is why I avoid anything that even *looks* like it might have New!Fen around. For all we complain about the somewhat dodgy sixties and seventies, Nu Who has indeed fallen farther into the modern trap of limiting women because (supposedly) they're not interesting. Or something like that. Also, these people seem to be the usual thirteen-year-old fangirl type, regardless of actual age/sex. So, yes. ::hugs::

See, this is why I avoid anything that even *looks* like it might have New!Fen around.

I wish it wasn't like that, because really, it's just a vocal minority of crazies messing it up for the majority of sane fen out there. Usually, it's pretty easy to tell where the crazies are going to congregate, but occasionally you are, as I was, unprepared.

And it's more the fanon that's grossly unfeminist than the canon - I may object to every female companion being defined by her romantic feelings toward the Doctor, but certain contingents of fandom tend to carry this to its illogical extreme. But such are the hallmarks of any large fandom, I suppose.

I started out as a New Who fan (and I still like New Who), so I feel the need to say that not everyone in that fandom is an idiot.

But the particular attitude you mention about classic Who companions does seem to be pervasive. I had it myself, before I started watching old school episodes, and I don't even know where I got it from. It was wonderful to learn that Zoe and Victoria and Barbara and Liz and Jo weren't at all like the stereotype. (I'm sure that later companions aren't, either, it's just that I've only seen up to Jo's era so far.)

And I do agree that the New Who thing of female companions being defined by their romantic feelings for the Doctor is profoundly sexist. I'm hoping we'll see improvement this year with Donna around.

P.S. for your exam: It's "iamb," not "iam." :-)

I started out as a New fan myself, had to learn from the show that the "helpless screamer" stereotype was not pervasive, and still enjoy the New show. Plus, a lot of people I know and are friends with are New fans, and they're certainly not idiots at all. :) So, I do apologize for my generalizations.

It's just that...I hate seeing people make generalizations without knowing what they're talking about. Under any circumstances. And the smug superiority that tends to go with that statement grates on the nerves.

I do hope that Donna provides a change from the pattern that came up with Rose and Martha, but the show seems to be at such pains to emphasize that Donna won't be romantically involved that I worry she'll become defined by that just as much.

for your exam: It's "iamb," not "iam."

*facepalm* Knew I was forgetting something. Thanks!

Sorry to have been oversensitive. There's a fairly vocal contingent of classic Who fans who go on and on about how the new version sucks and anybody who likes it is stupid, so as someone who really likes both new and old, I can get a bit defensive!

the show seems to be at such pains to emphasize that Donna won't be romantically involved that I worry she'll become defined by that just as much

Eep. Yeah. I'm hoping all that was just a way of setting the terms and reassuring the fans, and that Donna won't be having to proclaim her lack of romantic interest every episode.

Even though I don't actually want to see any Doctor/Donna shippiness, I can't help thinking that it would be interesting to see the Doctor having feelings for someone who's an actual adult.

I'm curious about that, too. I think it's a bit inevitable that romance will get reapproached on the show -- I just hope they give it a rest for awhile and when they do it again they do it better -- but when it does, I'd like to see it with someone older.

Yeah. If you think about it, there's something slightly creepy about 900+ year old guy/barely-out-of-her-teens girl.

I'd also like to see the next romance be non-heterosexual, but since not even having a gay man running the show can give us that, I'm not holding my breath.

ETA: The age difference isn't necessarily creepy in itself, but if it's becomes a pattern, that's creepy.

Edited 2008-04-07 04:14 (UTC)

(Look at my icon.) I like to think we've already gotten there.

My icon too! But I'd like to see it acknowledged--part of the text rather than the subtext.

*snerk* As far as I'm concerned, it stopped being subtext when they rolled around the floor while a building fell down around them in The Deadly Assassin.

Ooh, I haven't seen that yet. Looking forward to it now.

No, no, that's okay. I probably overstepped my bounds a bit there.

And yes, I think it would be interesting to see an older woman (or man, for that matter) as a romantic interest, both because it would be nice to see someone older than 30 portrayed as desirable and because I think the dynamic between the Doctor and someone with more life experience would be refreshing. But just...not now. Not coming right off the heels of the explicitly-romantic Rose and Martha.

Gosh, I love remembering that the only reason I'd ever watch a TV show is because there's an idealized romantic dreamworld I can insert my unfulfilled and lost little feminine self into.
Wait, are you implying there are other reasons to watch TV?!
^ That was supposed to be a joke, and then I thought about it, and thought some more, and I think I should go crawl back to my private corner of the fandom sandbox in shame now.

Eeek! I'm sorry! I didn't mean to scare anybody! I really do apologize!

It's not the idea of watching TV for a romantic subplot that irks - it's the idea that this is the only reason why any woman would watch TV, which is why I get mad at the "TV must have romance for demographic purposes" assumption. I have no problem with watching for a romantic subplot if that's what someone wants to do, but I object to the presumption that because I am a woman I am solely interested in the romantic side of a program.

I really hope I didn't cause too much offense. *pleads*

*bounces back, rejuvenated* Oh, no worries! I was more afraid of offending you. I see what you're saying now about presumptions - it does remind me how I watch shows like Grey's Anatomy and am compelled by a desire for them to shut up about their love lives and concentrate on showing me the practice of medicine. Balance is good, no matter what I'm predisposed to like. (this is part of what's fun about X-Files in the beginning, actually)

Also, someone struck fear into my heart by bringing up the possibility of Doctor/Donna shipping, which had not previously even crossed my mind. In which case I cling very stubbornly to the idea that all subsequent seasons of DW are welcome to go on without any semblance of romantic subplot at all. Compelling villains! Running for one's life! PLOTS, YAY! The end.

Looking this comment over, I really wish I could cite sources in papers as easily as I toss TV shows around.

*exhales with relief*

Precisely! And actually, the X-Files example is perfect for what I was thinking of. The subtext is there if you want it to be, but it doesn't take over the entire show. As it concerns Doctor Who, I certainly don't object to the idea of Doctor/companion shipping (that'd be awfully hypocritical of me), but...that's not the only reason I watch. And I don't want it to become the centerpiece of the show.

Compelling villains! Running for one's life! PLOTS, YAY! The end.

Yes! Plots are good! I look forward to those.

This... will probably sound snotty, but I'm glad that I have not seen a single minute of NuWho. I'm not conflicted over which series is better, I don't feel the need to defend either, I don't get stuck in fandom battles. The tension and schizophrenia simply does not concern me.

I like it when my fandom is safe and cuddly. This is probably why I've left PotC and stay largely out of MCR. Of course, I'm barely on the fringes of Classic!Who fandom as well....

::sigh:: need moar time, less homework.

You know, a good battle tactic might be to upload short clips of Classic!Who companions being awesome, and embed them in replies to the offending comments. 30 seconds of footage and the New-Fen might realize the error of their ways and be tempted into watching some Classic!Who. This method doesn't have to be mean or snotty at all, just say something like, "Hey, I really like both New and Classic Who. Part of why I like the series is because the gender politics are pretty good in both [this may be a white lie concerning NuWho, depending on your pov]. See what I mean?" [insert video] Maybe positive action will soothe your righteous anger. I worry when the Muppet is enraged.

(I have video ripping and editing software, btw, so if you wanted to do this I could help.)

P.S. Is it strange that I see all these people commenting on your journal, get irrationally jealous, and sneer, "I know her in real life! I HAVE HEARD HER GIGGLE"? I feel obligated to prove my Muppet-friend credentials. :/ This is probably related to my growing sense of loneliness and isolation, which spawns this pitiable attempt to garner attention and vicarious friendships by making a fuss in a public space visited by not only yourself but also by these LJ friends which I both envy and wish to possess. Also, I killed my father and slept with my mother? Ew.

I can imagine the PotC fandom drowning in wank, but I am constantly surprised at hearing the same for the MCR fandom. It's just...what is there to fight over? That makes me quite sad. :(

That's a rather excellent idea, but it would also require me to actually become involved in these arguments. XD I may do it anyway, just because I enjoy the idea of video-spamming people with bits of The Invasion and suchlike.

(Also, you simply must let me come and have a poke at your video software, so I can behold this fabled technology that I've never actually seen.)

Oh dear. I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm not doing anything at the moment; would you like me to wander over to your room so we can have Real Live Face-to-Face Interaction? I don't know if it'll help...

Also, I killed my father and slept with my mother? Ew.

Now I'm not sure I've the proper qualifications to help you there.

DMC changed so many things about the canon-- tone, characterization, etc.-- that fandom went mental for a while. The worst part is that my safe little corner of it, the Sparrington ship, was very hard hit because of Norrington's about face. Some people loved it; others thought it was character assassination. His fate in AWE infuriated everyone. I wasn't mad, only because by that point I was emotionally numb and hadn't expected anything better. :(

Womble Video Wizard 'tis my weapon of choice. I've done all of my school projects on it, as well as the Scarlet Bandersnout videos. You can download 30-day trials, as many as you have e-mail addresses for. I eventually ~~got my dad to buy me~~ bought a version because I used it so much, and because it was technically a tool for school. Yay. ^_^

His fate in AWE infuriated everyone.

*raises hand* Speaking as someone not even involved in the fandom, I say YES IT DID.

And I shall go and investigate this video editing thing, because I totally need to add fanvids to my list of fannish timewasters.

(another comment because I enjoy spamming your journal)

At least he didn't "ruin" them by not Wuvving Them Back.

I don't know if this would support or detract from your claim, but I want to compile a video of every time 4 introduces Sarah Jane as his best friend and fling it all over the internet. The only thing stopping me is the knowledge that attempting to make this video would cause me to break down into squee fits.

Weeeell...in the context of School Reunion, I'm not sure which way it'd go, but I insist on the creation of this video. I shall accompany you in its making and we can squeefit together.

Ok, now I just need to purchase every Sarah Jane serial evar. ^_^ Or... rip them from Youtube. Hrm. I'll just do a quick search here, and-- wait, what's happening? I'm being sucked into a void! I'm losing my grip! Save me, Muppet, I-- I-- OH GOD, IT'S THE HOMEWORK!! THE HOMEWORK HAS GOT ME! SAVE YOURSEEEEEEEEELF!

*yanks on your arm*

::arm tears off with a squelch::

AAAAAAAAOH MY GOOOOOOOD.

::disappears into the void::

::time passes::

::comes back:: Hey, y'all! You know if you do homework they give you diplomas? ::acquires high-paying job, wife, kids, etc.::

Wait. Really? Golly, so that's what I've been doing wrong this whole time.

Nice cybernetic arm you've got there too. Shame about the original one...*looks sheepish*

Word on everything. I've abandoned some other fandoms precisely because of the crazies, and I avoid some parts of the Who fandom like the plague for that same reason. I love watching both Classic and New Who and I love to discuss things with other fans, but only when people can actually discuss in in a rational manner, and when "passionate" doesn't equal "intolerant to the preferences of others" - which, evidently, is impossible when the crazies are around. I want to be able to shout out my love for Three and Seven without receiving a "only stupid people don't have Nine/Ten as their favourite" as reply, or fangirling Jamie's kilt or Donna's mime talk in this new episode without being told I'm an idiot because Rose rules and every other companion should die, or even saying that Rose is amazing without being attacked by those who believe that everybody who likes Rose are noobs. (yes, those have been actual replies I've seen, though luckily not addressed to me) And I like to ignore the now "classic" Old Who Vs. New Who battle, as I love them both and refuse to see either as superior to the other. *sighs*

There seems to be a batshit wing in almost every fandom I've seen, but thus far that of the Who fandom has been the largest and most visible, whereas I've been able to mostly ignore it in some of my other fandoms (fortunately). And I do hate the fact that, no matter what your opinion is, someone is willing to yell at you about it.

Lesson learned: Stick to my flist, because people are sane here. :D

I have absolutely nothing to add except that this entry has the most comments of any private journal entry I've ever seen. BOW BEFORE THE AWESOME THAT IS MUPPET. XD

*shy* I've seen some that have comments in the hundreds before, so I'm sure this is not the most. Also, I think a lot of these comments involve me backpedaling very rapidly...

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This fandom brings out the best and the worst in me.

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