stunt_muppet: (Jo's in prison)
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So.

Finally saw "Journey's End".

And I...you know what? I can't make a proper reaction post about it. All I can tell you is how it made me feel, because I'm not thinking sensibly about it right now.

Non-spoilery: It made me angry. It made me sad and puzzled and occasionally happy but...mostly, just angry. And I wish it didn't, because Season 4 has been so good and I don't like being angry at this show, but when the end credits rolled I was so mad I could spit.

Part of it, I know, is just knee-jerk, reflexive anger, which hopefully will fade in time. That's the anger over Donna, and over having to say goodbye to her when I've come to love her so much, and over having to say goodbye to her in this particular fashion. I'm not up for a huge debate right now over whether the Doctor erasing her memory was right or wrong, but...dammit, I really hoped that maybe she'd get an unambiguously good ending, that she'd be able to walk away on her own terms and of her own free will. I wanted that for her, particularly after so many companions in New Who have had downbeat endings. And instead, I got this.

Part of it is anal-retentive nitpicky fangirl rage, since that was an enormous fucking waste of Davros and the Time Locked Time War concept and why are there hoards of Daleks in the sky again and didn't the earth burn up the last time it got moved through space and time (in The Mysterious Planet) and WHAT THE FUCK IS WITH THE REDIRECTED REGENERATION ENERGY. Look, RTD, I'll give you a pass on the regenerative "grace period", since that actually neatly wraps up quite a few issues from the Classic series and seemed to be implied in a few stories anyway. I'll even give you a pass on the Master's refusal to regenerate, since I guess that kind of makes sense when I don't think about it too much. But this? This thing with the hand? WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT. If you were going to pull something like that, you should have led up to it, because there's no indication in any of your prior episodes that Time Lords can do that and goodness knows you've waved the Hand around enough times, you could've given us something. OR MAYBE WE COULD JUST LEARN TO WORK WITHIN IN THE LIMITATIONS OF AVAILABLE CANONICAL RULES instead of making up something new every season.

I know that this, too, will pass, and that I shouldn't even be this anoraky about it when the series has always contradicted itself and made up new rules for regenerations (although, frankly, had I been alive when Logopolis was broadcast, I think this would have been my reaction to the Watcher).

Part of it, naturally, is Serious Meta-Level Rage re: Rose's characterization, the ending that I hope was meant as a satire of fandom because if it was meant to be taken seriously I can't even describe how creeped out I am, and the "I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" writing of the Doctor, especially with regards to his companions, which was interesting for a while but which Does Not Sit Well With Me anymore. But that requires me to summon up the mental energy for both SRS META and protracted arguement, and I just can't do that right now. For one thing, I'm working.
















So, as I often do when New Who consternates me, I dragged a plot point out-of-context back to Old School for the lulz.

So how long do you think it'll be before someone writes fic where one of the Old School Doctors redirects his regeneration and ends up creating a copy of himself that's half his companion? Because I've got a persistent mental image now of a Clone!One who's one-third Ben and one-third Polly. Only, you know, Ben and Polly wouldn't have to be retconned, because, er...there's two of them. So the Time Lord Brain is all spread out and in manageable sizes that their human brains can handle.

It totally makes sense. Shut up.

And just think what would've happened if the Doctor had metacrisised at any one of his regenerations? Alas, there'd be no duplicate Two, since he regenerated all by his lonesome, but we could potentially have a duplicate Three who is part Sarah, part Brig, and entirely confused.

Clone!Four would have bits of Adric, Nyssa, and Tegan, though I'm tempted to just pick two of them, because otherwise their personalities would all get so jumbled that they might be indistinguishable. However, using all three of them adds the advantage that their individual personalities wouldn't be affected all that much, whereas, say, Polly or the Brig, even as one of two, might still have occasional episodes of Time Lord Brain.

<cut to scene of Brigadier, head on his desk, massaging his temples>
Doctor: Eventful night, Brigadier?
Brig (glaring): Actually, no, Doctor. No, my trouble seems to be that I'm thinking in languages I can't pronounce again.
Doctor: Ah. It wouldn't happen to be Aphasian Chronodenian, would it? Fascinating language; completely inaccessible to anything living in linear time. Requres sending phonemes back through time to interact with others and alter the meaning of a -
Brig: I don't care. What it is, Doctor. Switch. It. Off.
Doctor: We've been through this, Brigadier. I can't do that without permanently altering your memory. You'll just have to learn to appreciate the chronofractive languages. And, incidentally, you haven't seen the other one of me anywhere, have you?
Brig: Him? Oh, he left hours ago. Said something about looking more professional.
Doctor: Looking more pro...oh, bugger. (dashes out)

or, alternatively...

Polly: (pokes Ben) Psst! Ben!
Ben: (still half-asleep) Mmm?
Polly: What's a psychokinetic particle manipulator?
Ben: (groggy) I don't know, why's it matter?
Polly: Because there's one on Galaxy Six and I'd really like to go see it. I think.

And so forth.

Of course, it occurs to me that since metacrisis doesn't actually result in regeneration, theoretically the Doctor could have done this at almost any point in time - all he has to do is almost die. Which...oh, I hope someone writes fic for this, I don't care how they make it work. I mean, just think of the possibilities! I mean, Clone!Two! Who's part Jamie and Zoe! Staggeringly intelligent, magnificently Scottish, and still Patrick Troughton. There's no bad here.

Or Leela!Four. Dude. Leela!Four would be awesome on toast. And Leela can survive the metacrisis because she's special. Or Ace!Seven! Or Mel!Six! Barbara!Ian!One. Somehow they don't need to get mindwiped! I don't know!

You know, for all that it made me hiss with nitpicky rage during the episode itself, I don't think I've had quite as much fun with a plot device since the fobwatch.

So, um, in conclusion: Not happy. But not happy with some amusing mental images as consolation.
location: werkin'
Mood:: 'conflicted' conflicted
There are 11 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] nentari.livejournal.com at 02:37pm on 09/07/2008
I mean, Clone!Two! Who's part Jamie and Zoe! Staggeringly intelligent, magnificently Scottish, and still Patrick Troughton.
Ooh, I want one!

Re. your rant: the part of me that isn't outraged and frustrated with the fate RTD gave to Donna is the same part of me that laughs together with the Doctor at the end of The War Games. Remembering how turnedright!Donna was like in the face of chaos and danger gives me hope for her future.
 
posted by [identity profile] stunt-muppet.livejournal.com at 03:13pm on 10/07/2008
Ooh, I want one!

As everyone should, really. *nods*

And I like your coping strategy. Angry though I am that the Donna we've come to know is gone, at least she's still alive and still her amazing self, even without meeting the Doctor.

Plus, this provides room for the retconning itself to be retconned away at some point (Season 4b, anyone?).
 
posted by [identity profile] livii.livejournal.com at 06:02pm on 09/07/2008
Your plot device ideas are pretty much the best thing ever, yo.
 
posted by [identity profile] stunt-muppet.livejournal.com at 03:16pm on 10/07/2008
Heh, nothing makes an episode better than taking its central plot devices to (il)logical extremes. :D
 
posted by [identity profile] airie-fairy.livejournal.com at 10:21pm on 09/07/2008
As someone heartbroken in the good way over Donna, I can still really agree with the feeling that something positive would've been nice after the initial implications in the Rose and Martha departures.

The hand business: I kinda loved the hell out of Nate, but I was a bit weirded that the series arc was leading to that, and the hand thing was...yes. Weird. I think it's only because he already just happened to have the hand available that he had somewhere else that was matching, technically of his own body, to put his regenerative genetic information. Had it not been there, and in most to virtually all cases I'd say a Gallifreyan wouldn't get that opportunity, we'd have Eleven. So that's what I'm explaining it as so it isn't so random.

Davros even called him "destroyer of worlds." Of course, Davros was deflecting accountability and has Issues, but still. I was more wtf over the pointlessness of the Red Dalek than over Davros. Anyway, I kind of like the exploration of the unintended dark side that really always haunts the Doctor, but I think that's constantly visible even when not being directly addressed, so it could do to pace itself more in being presented.

On Rose, this is how I see it: I've already decided she came back as a Torchwood agent who knew him to find the Doctor for help, and took the personal perks of the job with her, because I can't be dealing with risking-reality-for-a-shag crap, even if I'm not fond of her. And as to the ending: Despite her not being over him, she was much more casual about it than last we saw her, so that helped me not want to harm anyone quite so much. And she didn't seem especially interested in Nate (the other Doctor), who seemed very much his own person(ality), either. So it just doesn't seem like it's going to stick. Not to mention, since he's the metacrisis and a metacrisis, as we've heard, is doomed, I'm really figuring that poor bastard is doomed to die right quick. Any way you cut it, there's no permanent boxing up of Rose into that life as I saw it. So she'll move on with her Torchwood job and it'll be fine and that helps me out.

"part Sarah, part Brig, and entirely confused"

I love this sentence fragment.

Also, remember that Adric and Nyssa aren't human and already have brains the size of planets. There could be variance.

"Fascinating language; completely inaccessible to anything living in linear time."

THAT'S SO COOL. Kinda reminds me of my Meeples, with their genders and names indistinguishable to non-Meeples. ...I should do more with them.

OH POLLY, I LOVE YOU. <3

Wait, Leela!Four?! I WANNA SEE FOUR!LEELA!!! Her running around, spouting off surly technobabble and eating candy and growling at people as though she's got no time for this shit between threatening to stab them.
 
posted by [identity profile] stunt-muppet.livejournal.com at 03:51pm on 10/07/2008
I think it's only because he already just happened to have the hand available that he had somewhere else that was matching, technically of his own body, to put his regenerative genetic information. Had it not been there, and in most to virtually all cases I'd say a Gallifreyan wouldn't get that opportunity, we'd have Eleven. So that's what I'm explaining it as so it isn't so random.

I like your explanation. Mind if I use it too? :D No, now that I sit down and think about it like a reasonable person the hand thing makes some sort of sense skientiffically, but it still just feels like it came out of nowhere, and I would have liked a little more leadup and/or foreshadowing. Although I suppose Jenny's notdeath in TDD could have been foreshadowing that, in an oblique and strange way. Somehow. I don't know.

...I actually forgot about the Red Dalek. No lie. I completely forgot he was there. That's not a good sign.

I'm a fan of occasional bouts of dark!Doctor myself, since he has the potential to be both an interestingly flawed person and unsettlingly un-human, but...I don't know, it was just laid on so damn thick in Seasons 2 and 3 that I got sick of it, and I was glad we didn't touch it for much of Season 4. Plus, all the Mighty Smiter rhetoric changes the facets of the Doctor from flawed human and non-human/alien to flawed human and Elder God. Not as interesting for me.

Also, I like your explanation for Rose and will be using it as well, since one of the things that irritated me the most was the idea that Rose hadn't moved on with her life. Had she been trying to get to him because the universe was collapsing like a souffle and she didn't know anyone else who could fix that, I wouldn't be nearly as cranky.

And I know that this makes me sound like a horrible person, but I'd almost like it better if Xerox!Ten did die of metacrisis - not because I dislike him, mind you, because I don't, but because I found it massively unfair that he got to walk away while Donna had to be mind-wiped. Yeah, yeah, I know, human brain can't handle Time Lord Brain but TLB can handle human brain, etc etc, but that doesn't mean I like it.

Also, remember that Adric and Nyssa aren't human and already have brains the size of planets. There could be variance.

Excellent point - they probably would be able to handle metacrises just between the two of them, going by canon rules, and would likely be the least affected in a three-way split. Tegan, on the other hand, is probably stuck with Doctor!Brain, the poor thing.

I made up the language off the top of my head, actually - I needed a reason for it to be unpronouncable that would sound sufficiently skiency, and if part of a word consisted of two or more simultaneous syllables or sounds, humans wouldn't be able to duplicate it without sound equipment. And yes, you should do more with the Meeples! I love seeing interesting aliens in DW fic, since there aren't as many as you think.

FOUR!LEELA WOULD BE AWESOME. She'd act all distracted and wide-eyed and occasionally technobabble at you and then suddenly she'd have a knife at your throat.
 
posted by [identity profile] airie-fairy.livejournal.com at 04:41pm on 10/07/2008
Yay, my theories are accepted! =D

It kinda makes me feel better about Nate dying, too. Mind you, I ADORED him. But I just don't see how in hell that would only apply to one of them when they were each halves. As soon as Ten brought it up to Donna, I was like "Um, well, there goes the other one." It sucks the last inkling of sop from Rose's scene, too (a scene that mostly succeeded at implying a lot of ambivalence more than the sop it might've intended, anyway. Or maybe it did intend ambivalence).

Yeah, see! So much Who fic is character stuff, and while that's awesome, I kinda feel like I'd be Doing It Wrong if I didn't try to keep with the central driving force of the show.


 
posted by [identity profile] stunt-muppet.livejournal.com at 05:05pm on 10/07/2008
a scene that mostly succeeded at implying a lot of ambivalence more than the sop it might've intended, anyway.

That happens a lot, I've found - I don't know if it's deliberate or not, but there are a lot of scenes in New Who that don't say what they think they're saying. I like to think it's deliberate, since I do occasionally give the writers the benefit of the doubt.

I've heard speculation that the ending was a jab at fandom as much as anything, giving Rose and Ten a superficially happy ending that was in fact not terribly happy at all. I don't think I believe that, but it's an interesting way of looking at it.

So much Who fic is character stuff, and while that's awesome, I kinda feel like I'd be Doing It Wrong if I didn't try to keep with the central driving force of the show.

Same here, really, although I'm guilty of doing the mostly charater-centric stuff just because actually coming up with engaging and believable sci-fi plots and aliens and things that haven't been done ad nauseum already can be a lot of work for me. I love a good character piece, but I love a good adventure just as much, aliens and all.
 
posted by [identity profile] airie-fairy.livejournal.com at 05:15pm on 10/07/2008
I'd probably end up with a good share of character stuff anyway, but if I can just get them to do something other than sit around. =D
 
posted by [identity profile] kayliemalinza.livejournal.com at 10:26pm on 09/07/2008
THAT'S THE SPIRIT. You take that Finale Suck and turn it into CRACKALICIOUS CLASSIC!WHO PLOT DEVICES!!!!!


Aphasian Chornodenian is wonderful, btw, and OBVIOUSLY I love your conversation between Ben and Polly.

Mostly, though, I like it when the Doctor is the Doctor and the Companions are the Companions-- they are so wonderful and distinct, and work well together, so why mix it up? idk, I like Jamie as Jamie and mixing in Two and Zoe would make him a tidge less special. not to mention that it's a slippery slope to "the earth/companions are NOTHING without teh doktarrr!!! he is the only thing werth livign forrrrr!!!!"

BUT. "Staggeringly intelligent, magnificently Scottish, and still Patrick Troughton" sounds very, very attractive. OOH! Mebbe the Doctor could REVERSE THE POLARITY of the metacrisis brain-flow, so the clone, DoctorZoeJamie, gets all the brain stuff and everyone else is normal? THAT would be hilarious. Jamie would somehow cause an argument, and Zoe would make the argument worse. And Two would try to kick it out of the TARDIS. But then it would do something particularly Jamie or Zoe-like and he wouldn't be able to. You know, because he wuvs them. Meanwhile, Jamie and Zoe are MORE freaked out and really want to throw it out, at which point it says something Two-ish, and Zoe decides that they couldn't possibly throw him out after all. Jamie is still antagonistic, until DoctorZoeJamie says something snotty about Two and Zoe that Jamie has sekritly been thinking from Day One, but has never been mean enough to say. AND THEN THEY BECOME BEST FRIENDS.

Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, Jamie having the ability to technobabble with Zoe and the Doctor would be so cute, and he totally deserves it, poor thing. So really, (and I should have seen this coming) either way you want to write this would make me very happy. ^_^ (Didja see how subtly I suggested that you write it? Did you? I'm slick.)



had I been alive when Logopolis was broadcast, I think this would have been my reaction to the Watcher
AHAHAHAH. TBH? I'd kinda forgotten about the Watcher. That little bit of dubious canon re-write slipped entirely from my brain.

Although actually, I thought the mechanism by which Ten avoided regeneration made sci-fi sense, especially because the circumstances were so perfect and are unlikely to ever happen again. None of the other Doctor's had their own hand in a jar, yanno? So the fact that this hasn't happened before ever isn't a problem. HOWEVER, I'm still irritated that RTD felt the need to use a possible regeneration as a cliffhanger jerk-around. And the two Doctors thing, while funny, had really unsettling implications re: the Companions, specifically Rose and Donna.

Side note: am I the only one who really hated the gimmicky "you can hug me, too!" interactions between Donna and Jack? They were out of character for Jack (he will hug anyone, and finds most people-- particularly ordinary people-- attractive) and made Donna look like the lonely/fat/unpopular kid. I guess they wanted to emphasize that she does feel that way about herself, but it just didn't sit well with me. Too clumsily done, I think, and far too effective with Rose and Martha on the same screen. Donna is straight-up awesome and we know it, and Jack would definitely recognize that, too. Seriously. Re-watch his scenes in Season One, RTD.



All that small font is probably hard to read, but I didn't want you to get assaulted by meta if you're not ready for it. ^^
 
posted by [identity profile] stunt-muppet.livejournal.com at 04:38pm on 10/07/2008
Mostly, though, I like it when the Doctor is the Doctor and the Companions are the Companions-- they are so wonderful and distinct, and work well together, so why mix it up?

Which would be why it's here in the journal instead of actually out in a fic somewhere. *nods sagely* It makes for entertaining crack, but once you start taking it even halfway seriously, it loses some of its appeal (not to mention having those unsettling implications you talked about).

I do like the idea much better if Jamie and Zoe remain Jamie and Zoe, because they are marvelous on their own and it would be a shame for them to lose their individuality, and besides it'd be complicated enough figuring out what to do with DoctorZoeJamie without adding JamieDoctor and ZoeDoctor into the mix. Except you know that ZoeDoctor would be cute as a button - still impossibly smart, but now a bit more distractable and prone to clapping her hands together when she's pleased. And I am in love with the thought of Jamie technobabbling at the Doctor and Zoe, and especially with the smug little grin he'd get when they both stared at him. :D

Didja see how subtly I suggested that you write it? Did you? I'm slick.

I almost missed it, that's how subtle it was. Practically invisible, really.

Also, no. No no no I really can't pick up another fic right now I've already got so much backlog with Memory and whoniverse1000 and the kinkmeme and all that and who am I kidding I'll probably end up writing a short crackfic about it anyway. Sigh.

That little bit of dubious canon re-write slipped entirely from my brain.

Which is probably the best thing to do. :D For the longest time, I thought that the Watcher was a completely cracked idea, but, much as with the metacrisis, once I sat down and thought about it it started to make sense. Hell, it even explained the Valeyard, kind of. HOWEVER, the Watcher at least had prior canon to back it up (in Planet of the Spiders, which I saw after Logopolis, which was probably the only reason I had such a problem with it). Of course, nothing in Planet explains why the Watcher's covered in bandages, but I'll take what I can get.

Like I said, now that I give it some reasonable thought, the Hand-regeneration does make a sort of sense, but it was still so sudden and so unanticipated that it felt like a cop-out/someone pulling canon out of their ass. There were ways they could have led up to this - hell, way back in The Christmas Invasion when the plot device first got cut off. And yes, I hated the regeneration cliffhanger. We knew he wasn't really going to regenerate, seeing as the BBC's already adjusted S5 to fit Tennant's schedule. It was just another case of upping the stakes, since we apparently had to top last year's Gollum!Doc.

And I am a bad horrible wrong person for saying this, but it might have been worth it just for that scene where the Doctor and Rose's happy reunion is interrupted by a Dalek (Caan? I forget.) shooting him. I laughed. I LIKE Rose and Ten and I still laughed. I don't think I was supposed to.

am I the only one who really hated the gimmicky "you can hug me, too!" interactions between Donna and Jack?

No, you're not. It made Donna look...rejected. Passed over in favor of the younger ladies and gents. Like even the canonical manslut wouldn't touch her unprompted. It was sad and felt mean on the writers' behalf. DONNA HAS EARNED SOME HUGS, DAMMIT.

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