*grumble grumble don't wanna do my reading right now grumble* : comments.
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![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
Part... part one because I really rambled forever and ever.
Thus, since I have someone with whom to meta, have a really long-winded response!
Jo has very little to do except scream.
This isn't a very good serial for her, is it? I'm much more of a Jo fan than I expected to be at the outset - she's so awesome in The Mind of Evil, among many others. And she is rather instrumental in the "softening" of the Third Doctor's personality, isn't she? Looking forward to more of your thoughts on her character!
I kept thinking of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
Aha! That explains a lot - I must've been thinking that as well. ;) Alas, poor costume department. Nobody will take them seriously now.
I think Three places an emphasis on the difference – the alien-ness – of the Doctor
Yes! And it's fun to speculate about just how much of this alien-ness is a sort of overreaction to his being constrained to Earth. Especially in the seventh series, when his TARDIS is still very much out of commission, he does a lot of name-dropping and oh-back-when-I-was-in-this-galaxy-ing (which can only have two possible outcomes: either people don't believe him and think he's crazy, or they already know he's an alien and just get annoyed with him for bringing it up every few minutes). I mean, he's just gone through what is certainly one of the most traumatic regenerations (okay, so Eight-to-Nine takes the cake there) - forced by the Time Lords, stuck on Earth, and it's not even so much that his TARDIS is broken - it's that his mind has been erased so he can't even remember how to use it. It's really, really traumatic, and he does not cope with it well.
Another reason that I think the Third Doctor comes across as very alien (in a very different way from the Ninth Doctor) is that he has very good reason to resent Earth. At least in other incarnations (well, barring the First, who is arguably the most alien for obvious reasons), he's always got this "Huzzah Earthlings!" approach - with Three, not so much.
The Master’s a captial-letter Bad Guy, but he’s also the only person like him that the Doctor has any hope of meeting.
Right, yes! I adore analyzing the relationship between Three and the Master - it's so wonderfully complex, and I just love those moments we get where they do the whole "unlikely alliance" thing and wind up working better together than with any of the humans. I always contend that Three and Delgado!Master are the Doctor-Master combo that makes it easiest to believe they were friends at school together. There are moments, sure, with the other Doctors and other Masters, but they're always eclipsed by whatever evil scheme the Master's cooking up this week. Maybe it's because Pertwee and Delgado were such good friends - but you can really buy that they got along at some point.
Also - I've just gotta say - the fact that Pertwee kinda towers over Delgado makes it very interesting as well. It's neat to have a villain who isn't really all that physically menacing (well, except for the very, very piercing glare). There are scenes (see Mind of Evil) where the Doctor winds up looking much more villainous and bullyish.
they settle quite comfortably into technobabbling at each other and bickering in a sort of adorable way
Hee! I love those moments.
And part two!
It is quite a scary thought - and I'm gonna take this moment to interject and ask if you've heard of Jeri Massi's amazing epic-length Third Doctor fanfic? (And when I say epic, I mean epic. Approximately a billion - okay, so about two dozen - high-quality novel-length fanfics.) Despite a few quibbles, it's basically become my addition to canon - and I occasionally confuse it with canon! I think that, when my Great Classic Who (re)Watch makes its way back to the Third Doctor's era, I'm gonna try to watch the episodes and read her fic in the prescribed order. Could be fun!
Anyway, yes. What reminded me is that she does such an amazing job with the relationship between Jo and the Doctor - that uncertainty that eventually gives way, just a little. It's awesome.
I think I like Delgado’s Master a bit more than Simm’s Master.
Alas, I've fallen into this situation as well. I mean, I love Simm!Master to death, really I do, and he's just wonderful and shiny and things, but nobody beats Delgado. Nobody. :D
He rarely resorts to violence (at least direct violence) if he doesn’t have to.
Again, in some serials he almost feels more Doctorish than the Doctor (which totally makes sense if you consider the "The Final Game" serial that was never made - that whole Wiki article is a fanfic writer's dream!). It's an awesome parallel, and it makes him still more wonderfully creepy when he does do things you can't condone.
But then, I’ve always found villains who were coldly, unmistakably sane to be far more satisfying than raving lunatics.
Hee, yes! I'm the same way - I've always found the Doctor/Master interactions a bit difficult to grasp, because there's so much of the Big Bad about the Master, and I have trouble with that idea - absolute, unreasoning evil. I like the fact that Delgado!Master's motivations are totally understandable (if self-serving - Jeri Massi's "The Dangers of Exceeding the Blinovitch Limitation Effect" delves into that nicely), just a bit alien - rather like the Doctor's are sometimes. It keeps us off-guard and guessing - having a more alien Doctor and a surprisingly appealing Master is an unbeatable combination.
Roger Delgado raises his eyebrows in a frankly magnificent way.
:D! We seem to have thoughts that are very much along the same lines. *grins*
I didn’t get much of an impression of the Brigadier here because he really didn’t have all that much to do besides be under arrest and make the occasional phone call.
Poor Brig. He deserves so much better!
Also, I think I need a Third Doctor icon.
I've got... um. Far more than is probably healthy. All the icon-makers are credited, and I highly recommend all of 'em. ;)
Hee - sorry to leave such a rambly comment. But hooray! I love long reviews like these and just couldn't resist.
Re: And part two!
My God, I feel like I've struck gold. Or that you've led me to gold. :D
having a more alien Doctor and a surprisingly appealing Master is an unbeatable combination.
Exactly, and I think that's the main reason I find myself liking the Three-Delgado!Master interactions more than the Ten-Simm!Master ones. I find it less satisfying when insanity is used as an excuse, or a reason in itself, for evil, since it cuts off most further exploration of a character. I think that Simm!Master was set up so much as a lunatic counterpart to the Doctor that his mental state became the only explanation for why he was who he was. Delgado!Master's just the Doctor but more so. It makes their mutual origins more apparent, complicates their relationship...just generally makes it all more interesting.
that whole Wiki article is a fanfic writer's dream!
*is awestruck again* Oh yes it is. I shall commentate on that in your LJ entry, but thanks again for showing me that. Mmm...ficbunnies. :)
And there's absolutely no need to apologize for rambly comments - discussions like these are the fun part!
Re: And part two!
It's pretty excellent stuff! I got all flaily when I first discovered it - I think that may've been the first time I found a single-authored fanfiction archive that took me more than a week to read through. And, y'know. High quality.
Really, I'm just sitting here and nodding in agreement with the rest of your statements. :D It's great to have someone with whom to discuss Three (and the Master, and Liz, and Jo)!
And a reply, part one.
I have to admit that, when I first started poking through these episodes, Liz came across as a much stronger character than Jo did, but now that I've seen some of her later episodes I think that I just picked a bad place to start with Jo. And you're exactly right about the "softening" of the Doctor; Jo's relationship to the Doctor seems to be a more emotionally-based one, whereas Liz's was more intellectual, and I think that shift changes the way the Doctor relates to the rest of the characters as well. The fact that he takes Jo with him once he can time-travel again (rather than just dropping her off on Earth and leaving) speaks to that.
(I think I should state that The Mind of Evil, once I finally finished it, made me squee like crazy.)
I hadn't considered the regeneration itself as it regards the Doctor's alien-ness, so I'm glad you brought that up - it makes sense that he'd approach that regeneration in a different way than one incurred during an adventure. In a way, his whole body and mind are an imposition on him by someone else.
...You know, I'm sure that the Doctor is already by this point accustomed to being in a different body and thus having to get used to a new appearance, but if the forced regeneration was his first rather than his second, who's to say he would even have thought of this new body as "himself", at first? He had nothing to do with its existence, after all. I mean, I'm sure he'd adjust eventually, since he'd be at least used to the idea of regeneration, but...
</ tangent>
I always contend that Three and Delgado!Master are the Doctor-Master combo that makes it easiest to believe they were friends at school together.
That's the impression I had of them as well, and even when Three gets to interact with Ainley!Master, it's just not the same. Perhaps the fact that Delgado!Master is still within his natural regenerative lifespan, whereas Ainley!Master and all his successors are living in stolen or newly-fabricated bodies, has something to do with it? From an in-character perspective, anyway.
And I hadn't noticed (well, registered) the height disparity between Pertwee and Delgado, so further thanks for pointing that out to me. I'll have to be on the lookout for that in future serials.
Further replies to follow...
Re: And a reply, part one.
Re: And a reply, part one.
And yes, Jo's proven 100% more kickass in the other serials, so my mistake has been corrected. :D
Re: And a reply, part one.
Jo's relationship to the Doctor seems to be a more emotionally-based one, whereas Liz's was more intellectual, and I think that shift changes the way the Doctor relates to the rest of the characters as well.
Yes - and it's easiest to see this shift with the way the Doctor reacts to Sarah right from the start. He was... well, not quite outright antagonistic towards Jo, mostly because she was so doggedly cheerful about everything, but he was definitely more on the aloof/distracted side in "Terror of the Autons", whereas in "The Time Warrior" he seemed amused, actually interested in Sarah. And then, right away, he was willing to accept Sarah as a companion and a friend, whereas he kept pushing Jo away for most of the eighth series. Something definitely took place while Jo was around - it's a transformation I sort of missed out on by watching everything so terribly out of order. Once my Great Who (Re)watch makes its way to the Pertwee era (which, at this rate, will probably be sometime in February!), I might have more coherent thoughts on the subject.
(I think I should state that The Mind of Evil, once I finally finished it, made me squee like crazy.)
The Mind of Evil is surely one of the most squeeworthy serials out there! I think I may have squeed about it on... on three separate occasions? I need a better tagging system on my LJ, I think, to keep track of this stuff.
who's to say he would even have thought of this new body as "himself", at first?
Ooh, which reminds me! Have you read... now, what was it... Come Back to Tell You All (I Shall Tell You All)? Excellent, excellent story that delves right into that issue. And the ending never fails to make me all wibbly.
Perhaps the fact that Delgado!Master is still within his natural regenerative lifespan, whereas Ainley!Master and all his successors are living in stolen or newly-fabricated bodies, has something to do with it?
Ah, that's a really interesting idea. I think that Four's whole interaction with Crispy!Master in The Deadly Assassin changed their dynamic entirely. But then, I've got this silly little pet theory that Four carries a lot of resentment about what was done to him in his last incarnation, and that extends to rejecting a lot of things that the Third Doctor was all about. Er. What am I trying to say, here?
What I'm trying to say is that I think the interactions between Ainley!Master and the Doctor had as much to do with the Doctor's regeneration as with the Master's. From an in-character perspective, as you say.
And I hadn't noticed (well, registered) the height disparity between Pertwee and Delgado, so further thanks for pointing that out to me.
I checked it out on IMDB, just out of curiosity - Delgado's 5'7-and-a-half", while Pertwee's 6'3". Yikes! I didn't think it was quite that pronounced - they mustn't have been wanting to emphasize that too much. Come to think of it, in a lot of their interactions one or both are sitting down. Or they're running and firing guns and things. One or the other.
More replies to follow, replies to your replies to my replies! :D
Re: And a reply, part one.
Yeah, on reflection, I should probably be watching these in some sort of order, rather than finding one that looks interesting and saying "Hey! I'll wanna watch that one!" But then, I've managed to understand every serial so far with only a quick trip to Wikipedia to refresh some facts, so...um. Yeah. I'll make that decision later. Like once I've burned through the next three on my To-Watch List.
(Why did nobody warn me that this show is ever so addictive?)
I am discovering whole new worlds of Three!fic over the course of this comment thread, and it is bringing me GREAT JOY. *hugs you* You know, I think it may finally be time for me to get a Teaspoon account, so's I can keep this and the other fics what turns up on
Coming right off of "The Mind of Evil", the Four-BBQ!Master interactions almost depressed me. I know that their relationship had to change, and I think you are once again correct - it has a lot to do with the Doctor's regeneration. Why would he want to be reminded that the Master used to be his only reliable tether to a world beyond Earth?
But...but...but I miss the bickering and the sarcasm and the SKIENCE, dammit. :( (I have shamelessly made off with your spelling, by the way. Hope that's all right.)
They are, aren't they. Even in "Axos" they spent a lot of time leaning on the TARDIS console. And then there's that publicity shot where Delgado's substantially in the background, so of course he looks smaller. Hmm.
Come to think of it, only Seven was actually shorter than the Master, wasn't he? Davison and Ainley look about the same height, as do Colin Baker and Ainley, and Tennant and Simm. And Baker the First is just a skyscraper to begin with.
Further commentation on LJ posts and fic to come. :)
A tack-on to the last reply...
Re: A tack-on to the last reply...
Re: A tack-on to the last reply...
There's no height listed on IMDB for Ainley, so I can't resolve that particular debate, but given that Davison's 6'1", Baker the Second's 6'0", and McCoy's 5'6", I'm betting that Five and Six are about the same height as if not a bit taller than Ainley!Master.
Paul McGann's listed as 5'8"; Eric Roberts is 5'10". So that gives us only two Doctors that have been smaller than their respective Masters.
Why is everyone on this show so taaaaaaaall. < /short-person rant>
Re: A tack-on to the last reply...
Eenteresting. I'm sure there's detailed meta to be written on that subject!
Why is everyone on this show so taaaaaaaall. < /short-person rant>
The companions! The companions are generally a lot shorter than I thought! (I think?)
I'm precisely the same height as Delgado, which is... not a sentence I'd ever anticipated typing, I've gotta say. Hee.
Re: A tack-on to the last reply...
even though that caption was applied to McCoy.If nothing else, at least Adric was probably fairly small. :) Zoe too, I think.
(But then, I'm precisely one foot shorter than Colin Baker. Everyone looks tall to me. :D)