why did this take so long. D: : comments.
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![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Oh hai, I think Fall Break for both of us is next week.... I could come up Sat. night (Oct 10) and leave Tuesday night or Wednesday morning (13 or 14.) Please, PLEASE tell me everyone will be staying on campus.
I can actually understand the sexual component because I, er, can't differentiate between sexual and non-sexual contact/affection all that well. I guess what squicks me is the infantilization and the caretaker mystique, since being dependent was hugely frustrating as a child and I have no patience for or desire to have someone be dependent upon me.
That being said, I'm totally cool with drug-based incapacitation or infantilization being sexualized, so your alien spore idea sounds really nifty. What pairing was it, out of curiosity?
Emotionally kinky! That's an awesome phrase! Yes, yes, this hypothetical fic was definitely emotionally kinky, especially the main engine of the encounters is Kirk's Daddy Issues.
I don't think I need to handwave the corporal punishment so much as properly establish it (which I think is what you meant anyway.) Starfleet, as a fictional device, is based hugely on the British Navy (TOS used the bo'sun's whistle as a communicator sound effect) which has corporal punishment coming out the wazoo. As a diegetic institution, it probably functions a lot like the US military or Special Forces. Unlike a school, Starfleet has ownership over both the mental and physical capabilities of its members. This naturally allows for physical punishment in a way that (I personally feel) schools do not.* In other words, you probably wouldn't think it was weird at all if Pike told Kirk to "Drop and give me twenty!"
Of course, there is a distinction between making a boot camp grunt run laps or do push-ups, which are productive exercises in other contexts, and beating them with an implement, which has no other purpose than to cause pain. The advantage of a dedicated punishment is that it can be more carefully regulated (E.G., this offense deserves this number of hits, etc.) and thus prevent possible abuse ("Drop and give me twenty thousand!")
The way I've got it set up, it's a largely archaic rule that most people aren't even aware of, and Pike only digs it up because he can't let Kirk get expelled. Of course, since it's an official disciplinary measure meant to "wipe" a certain number of demerits from Kirk's record, it has to be documented and then Kirk has to sign the paperwork. He also gets CC'd when Pike submits the report to the Academy administration, and boy howdy doesn't Kirk just fucking love that. So yeah, the main focus of the fic is the emotional calisthenics rather than the physical act.
*I suspect corporal punishment in schools arose from a conflation of the relationship between teacher and student and the relationship between parent and child. Parents, from whose physical bodies children are literally derived, have a certain natural right to their children's bodies that an unrelated adult does not. Obviously, the right can be abused, and whether or not corporal punishment is an appropriate form of discipline is a hugely complex and individual issue.
I'm literally running out the door to work right now so I'll just post this comment and reply to the rest when I get back tonight.
(no subject)
I guess what squicks me is the infantilization and the caretaker mystique
Funny thing is, I don't understand the "infantilization" aspect in its extreme form (which is how I most often see it represented in kinkfic - adult diapers and such), but the caretaker as an eroticized figure makes sense to me. I kind of see it as another aspect of power play - the sense of having that much control over someone, and having someone need you not just in an emotional but literal physical way, carries a tinge of dominance along with the responsibility-and-care tender feelings. I'm not sure why my mind applies hard brakes so soon as those aspects are equated with a parent-child relationship, but it does.
What pairing was it, out of curiosity?
...it was Three/Brigadier with the Doctor as the one drugged, except his mental capacity was closer to late childhood/early preadolescence than infancy because it was easier to write that way and the Brig was in charge of keeping him out of trouble until Liz found a way to cure him. STOP THAT. I CAN HEAR YOU JUDGING ME OVER THE INTERNET. D:
Yes, I did mean establish it. Thank you for thinking of words when I am too incompetent to do so. And I guess I went with Starfleet as more U.S. military and thus more accustomed to the informal use of corporal punishment, trial-by-fire, physical activity as punishment (i.e. 'drop and give me twenty') rather than codified corporal punishment. The latter strikes me as a more boarding-school thing*, but I wasn't aware of its prevalence in the British military, so that makes a little more sense in context.
*The reason it brings boarding-school, specifically, to mind is largely because the student living at school makes it much easier to blur the line between parent/child and student/teacher. Also, the students aren't yet considered adults, and because of its association with punishing children corporal punishment thus becomes tied to an adult punishing a child; the students at Starfleet are young, but they're not children.
That said, I do like the way you set it up as an archaic rule that Pike digs up, as it adds yet more layers to the whole thing because Pike's trying to drag Kirk out of his own messes but is doing that by, you know, taking a whack at him if he has to. Kirk having to sign off on the thing is just another non-physical slap to the face, because the only thing Kirk hates worse than someone else telling him he screwed up is having to admit himself that he screwed up. Basically what it all amounts to is that I find this all a bit fascinating and am looking forward to seeing what you do with it. :)
(no subject)
fun fact: i originally typed YOU DUCK
I'm not sure why my mind applies hard brakes so soon as those aspects are equated with a parent-child relationship, but it does.
Maybe because there's no fail-safe for consent in a parent-child relationship? With two adults, either one can walk away at any time, even allowing for complicated emotional attachment. With parent-child relationships, the child has diminished legal status and is unequivocally dependent upon the parent. They can't call it quits if the power dynamic sours. :/ Also, well, this isn't really something people can be objective about. I'm just guessing here, but you, Muppet, probably don't want to have sex with your own parents.
i am judging you to be AWESOME. this sounds muy muy interesting, especially since the role reversal is so extreme. The Doctor is so mentally advanced that he sometimes infantilizes adult humans, and now Brig gets his
cuddlyrevenge....I wasn't aware of its prevalence in the British military, so that makes a little more sense in context.
Oh pfft, you watched Mutiny and Retribution, the Hornblower movies. I know you did because Paul McGann yelling broke your brain. Remember Wellard getting the snot caned out of him? :( Gene Roddenberry wanted Kirk to be Hornblower in Space, but I don't think he intended that to be a part of it. >P
What's interesting here is that I feel the need to lean heavily upon the British mode, since they're historically more brutal with their children (CP in schools, death and destruction in Doctor Who, etc.) with the sort of pragmatism born from life that is "nasty, brutish, and short." ST:TOS, of course, is pure American idealism; children should be coddled and protected from potential hardship, rather than be toughened up so they can better endure inevitable hardship. So yeah, Pike administering corporal punishment is an odd fit, but I'm all gung-ho about tweaking the universe anyway so why not throw that in the mix, too?
Oh, and just to clarify-- Pike will totally tell Kirk to "Drop and give me twenty!" on a regular basis. >P
it adds yet more layers to the whole thing because Pike's trying to drag Kirk out of his own messes but is doing that by, you know, taking a whack at him if he has to.
That breaks my heart, actually, because Kirk does not react well at ALL and packs up all his stuff to leave the Academy before he realizes (maybe after talking with Bones) that if he leaves, then he just got the shit bet out of him for nothing. It takes him months before he can talk to Pike again, though, and IT'S SO SAD because Pike had the best of intentions and the worst of options. :(
But, ha ha, talking about LAYERS, check out Act II. I haven't quite ironed all this out yet, but by second year or so Kirk has come to terms with what happened and figures out how this whole Starfleet thing works (the first punishment occurred very early in his first year.) So he screws up again, not enough that he'll get expelled, but enough that his number of demerits would disqualify him from a test or course or whatever that he wants, so he suggests to Pike that they do it again.
Pike is like, "WTF NO. WE ARE NOT MAKING THIS A HABIT." but Kirk argues that he is being pragmatic by making a short-term, physical sacrifice in order to facilitate his long-term career goals. He is extremely persistent, and basically forces Pike to do something he really, really doesn't want to. So this time, Pike is pissed as hell whereas Kirk sails out of his office, feeling sore but accomplished.
I don't know if this is Kirk's demented revenge, if he's getting a high off the act (again, Daddy Issues ahoy!) or if he really is just making a logical decision. O.o
(no subject)
Yes, that is it exactly, and thanks again for articulating what I was thinking when I haven't the thinky-thoughts to do it. It's not as temporary as a sexual roleplay or even drug-induced infantilism (which still has consent issues up to here) - it'll be years before a child can properly push back or say no, and there's the whole diminished-capacity-to-consent thing even if we aren't talking about the parents. Also, yeah, I think you were around that one time to see how I reacted to "sex" and "parents" even being in the same paragraph. XD
I think what I love most about it is that I see the relationship between the Doctor and the Brigadier as ambiguously parental in some cases, with Two as the younger child (whose arrival on Earth leads to the Brig moving up from Colonel to, well, Brigadier, and thus taking on more responsibilities as head of UNIT), Three as the teenager slowly growing up (complete with I-hate-you-I'm-never-speaking-to-you-again tantrums), Four as the young adult leaving home for the first time and building a life for himself again, and...I really don't know where this metaphor goes once you hit Five, Six, and Seven, though you could make a case for Mawdryn Undead as wish-fulfillment fantasy of restoring the memory of a father who's forgotten you, say out of age-related brain deterioration, and wow that was way darker than I wanted that metaphor to go, backpedaling now. Anyway, the infantilization gives me a chance to nicely literalize that dynamic and play on the Brig's feelings of responsibility toward the Doctor. And why is it always the dark stuff I never end up finishing? One of these days I'm just going to get sloppy drunk, finish up every "hey, can you tell I've been mainlining Silent Hill Let's Plays?" fic fragment that drifts on my hard drive, and post them before I sober up and realize what a bad idea that is.
Remember Wellard getting the snot caned out of him?
Well, yeah, but that was Age of Sail British military; I thought you were referring to more modern British military. I got a bit confused, sorry. :( And yeah, Europe tends to be a bit harsher on it's kids, I've noticed; though I'd argue that the US rolled out some pretty terrifying children's telly, I don't remember any of it getting as bleak as, say, Inferno or Horror of Fang Rock.
Except The Brave Freaking Little Toaster and its freaking nihilistic suicidal car song. Stupid movie.It takes him months before he can talk to Pike again, though, and IT'S SO SAD because Pike had the best of intentions and the worst of options.
Oh, man, and to have Kirk react to him like that after he did the only thing he could to help him...ouch. :( Also I LOVE Act II, since it plays into (movieverse) Kirk's later habit of planning on the fly and turning his situation to his advantage. And he'd definitely want to turn things back on Pike if he could, as some sort of...proof that he could, I guess? And we know he's something of an adrenaline freak from that scene in the movie where he *drives a car off a cliff* and all, so really, your version of Act II fits perfectly in with who New!Kirk is. And it sets up that competitive dynamic that I adore in an ambiguously-parental pairing, with neither completely having the advantage because even though Kirk's forced Pike's hand Pike's still the one administering the punishment so it's all ~complicated like. And and and basically this idea is a bit perfect and is slowly becoming my headcanon. And I was sorely lacking in headcanon for NuTrek, so I'm quite grateful for that. :D
(no subject)
Also, doooo it. I'm tempted every once in a while to drunkfic but I suspect that I would end up falling asleep and not writing anything at all. :(
it sets up that competitive dynamic that I adore in an ambiguously-parental pairing
Ooh! Yes! That's a great way of describing it, thanks. My Sulu/Pike fic is going to have a lot of meditations on Kirk as the son surpassing or inheriting the power of the father, so the competitive dynamic is part "I can do better than you, nyaaah" and "Look what I did, aren't you proud of me?" And Pike's motivations for kicking Kirk's ass can be equally selfish and altruistic. E.g., "This is for your own good but damn if I'm not enjoying myself."
It's funny-- I'm glad my CP idea is becoming your headcanon, but I don't know how easily I can fit it into my "postable" headcanon (the rubble fic, the Pike/Sulu, and the Shiny!Gold!Chekov are all compatible) because of the amount of establishment it needs. but that's ok, i have a headcanon AU where all the alien planets are BDSM republics or somesuch and everyone takes a turn at beating the crap out of Kirk and sub!McCoy is floating around in here somewhere, being all mute and compliant and such. and at some point Kirk, McCoy, and Spock get stuck in a cave and Spock regresses to primitive!vulcaness and thinks that Kirk and McCoy are his children. i know this is silly and self-indulgent. Don't judge me! D:
IF YOU REALLY WANT SOME MORE HEADCANON FOR NU!TREK I CAN RAMBLE AT YOU ABOUT SNIPER!JOANNA AND CORPORATE EMBEZZLER!SAM KIRK AND THE AWESOME AWAY TEAM TRIO OF ENGINEER WINONA KIRK, LIEUTENANT PIKE (JUST A FEW YEARS OUT OF THE ACADEMY, DONCHA KNOW) AND SPECIAL ENSIGN JOYCELYN HAPRIN (AKA JOYCELYN MCCOY) AND ALL THE BADASS SHIT THEY GET UP TO, LIKE THAT ONE TIME PIKE WAS DEAD FOR THREE DAYS.
I THINK I NEED TO DO A CRIME AGAINST FANDOM POST AT SOME POINT.
(no subject)
(No, drugged-out!Doctor still needed to be kept out of trouble - largely, the regression accentuates his already turbulent moods, so the verbal barbs and sarcasm become rants and outright sulking, the solid conviction that he's always right becomes a lot more pronounced, and the little woe-is-me-I-am-in-exile self-pity moments get a bit more needy and emotionally raw. At one point he's even okay with being cuddled, because even when you're raising a teen there are moments where they *don't* hate you, right? Also there was one scene in there where the Doctor stuck his tongue out at the Brig after being told not to do something but then I realized that didn't make any sense because poking the tongue out wouldn't have the same significance to an adolescent Time Lord as it would to an adolescent human and anyway I don't know if British kids even do that.)
I'm pretty sure I'd fall asleep trying to drunkfic too. I'm really sort of a boring drunk. I'd have to limit it to a galss of wine, and I'm not sure that's enough to make me post stuff I wouldn't post sober.
so the competitive dynamic is part "I can do better than you, nyaaah" and "Look what I did, aren't you proud of me?"
Yes! I love that in a father-son pairing, because it's two seemingly contrary emotions - rivalry and craving for attention/approval - that at root have a similar source (wanting to be better, whether for one's own benefit or the pleasure of another) directed at the same object, and the mental gymnastics required to accommodate those conflicting emotions. I've already mentioned that it worked really well in that fic snippet you posted, and I am ever so excited to see more of it, you have no idea. *jumps up and down*
I'm curious as to why the CP story would be incompatible (I almost typed incomplatible, which doesn't mean anything but sounds funny), though. It would require setup, yes, but I find setup and development makes a fic more interesting and satisfying. Does it not match up with the way Kirk/Pike is depicted in the rubble fic and the Sulu/Pike fic? Maybe you could make an authors note that the three fics you mentioned are of a similar continuity that the CP fic exists outside of.
You know Kirk likes it. McCoy, too. And DUDE YES MORE BDSM PLANETS. They are my secret pop-skiffy weakness except they're not a secret at all. Also I have no idea what paternal!primitive!Spock would be like but it would either be brilliant or hilarious. It's like a reverse Pon Farr, and as such makes a weird sort of sense.
...why would I judge you for self-indulgent silliness? I'm tl;dring at you about self-indulgent silliness in *two different comment threads* right now. Self-indulgent silliness is excellent and should be encouraged!
YES YES DO RAMBLE AT ME I WISH TO HEAR IT. Mainly because I know nothing about movie!verse Joycelyn and only what's onscreen for Winona and as such I am really, really looking for some good headcanon about them, especially headcanon where they get to be badass and awesome and have adventures and SNIPE THINGS HELLZ YEAH.
I PRACTICALLY DEMAND MORE CRIMES AGAINST FANDOM. FANDOM IS SO MUCH LESS INTERESTING WITHOUT THEM.
(no subject)
"Squash and chocolate cake are incomplatible because the squash water gets the cake all soggy and blegh."
I'm thinking the CP story is incompatible mostly because I can't slip it in as a throwaway line the way I can do with everything else. Also, the CP stuff would, if not exactly transform their relationship, then intensify it and makes certain aspects very explicit. The Kirk/Pike I have set up right now is contentious but fairly carefree, I think. IDK. It probably fits better than I think it does, I'm just hesitant to admit to the world at large that I use CP as a framework for exploring character dynamics. Which is silly, because fandom is pervy and will not disapprove.
Paternal!Spock is mostly hilarious with a dash of terror thrown in. He's stronger and faster than both of them, and as part of the regression, he only speaks Vulcan (or a simple form of it, anyway.) So there's a lot of Kirk and Spock yelling at each other in languages they can't understand before Spock just drags Jim back into the cave and pops him on the butt. It's dangerous out there. Spock can't let his soft, pink babies go wandering around without supervision; that would be irresponsible.
Jim, obviously, has to keep pushing the boundaries because ONE DAY Spock will let him go explore the forest. He knows it. (The strategy works-- much like a parent finally acquiescing to a teenager's demands for more freedom-- and McCoy gives the facepalm of the century.)
Spock also gathers fruit to bring back and shows Jim how to crack it open. Also, maybe he fights grizzly bears?
(there's another plot-line that is much less funny!parental!hijinks and more, um, rape. :/ Let's just say Spock treats McCoy a little differently than he treats Jim.)
OKAY MAYBE I WILL DO THAT CRIMES AGAINST FANDOM POST. GOSH. SINCE YOU TWISTED MY ARM AND ALL. YOU JERK. :D
(no subject)
Anyway, enough of that nonsense.
I'm thinking the CP story is incompatible mostly because I can't slip it in as a throwaway line the way I can do with everything else.
But does it have to exist in the same continuity as the other three? You could specify in the A/N that it doesn't exist in the same continuity as your other fic, if you feel the need to. That way you're removed of the obligation to even put it in as a throwaway line to anything else. Or you could write a ficlet specifically to write in the CP story as a throwaway line, as part of the same verse!
I'm just hesitant to admit to the world at large that I use CP as a framework for exploring character dynamics. Which is silly, because fandom is pervy and will not disapprove.
I would chide you and remind you that fandom has, in fact, produced fic pairing people with tribbles and seen fit to post it under its own pseud, but then I remembered that I have the exact same problem but replace "CP" with "dominatrices and shibari" and thus advice to that effect would be a touch hypocritical.
It's dangerous out there. Spock can't let his soft, pink babies go wandering around without supervision; that would be irresponsible.
I like this story already. :D Mostly because it provides opportunity for Spock to make angry parental faces at rebellious!Kirk and for McCoy to have to smack him and remind him that dammit, Sock isn't actually his parent, now stop acting like it and if you pull another stunt like that we'll both be sent to bed with no supper. Also, Spock fighting grizzly bears. Which is *awesome*.
Though given that this plotline seems at least mildly lighthearts, I'm curious as to how the secondary plotline fits into it, as it seems to be rather more serious. Poor McCoy. :(
TWISTING ARMS IS WHAT I DO BEST, DEAR. ESPECIALLY AS IT CONCERNS CRIMES AGAINST FANDOM.