stunt_muppet (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
stunt_muppet) wrote2009-10-01 02:15 am
stunt_muppet) wrote2009-10-01 02:15 am
why did this take so long. D:
And for some reason I felt obligated to finish it tonight, so now I'm up way too late again and I'm already all thrown off for this week and have missed stuff, this is just bad karma. I was doing so well. D: After this I'm done. I promise. I'll get back on track.
Ahem. The answers to the shipping meme, all 7 pages in Word of them. I talk a lot.
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elyssadc asked me about Doctor Who (Old-School)
+OTP: Tie between Three/Jo and Two/Jamie (only reason I don’t write loads of fic for the latter is because I find them both maddeningly difficult to write). I’m not sure if they’re my actual OTPs or if I’m just enamored of them at the moment, but they’re both built on very deep friendship and care and actually address the power imbalance between the Doctor and his companions rather than pretend it doesn’t exist, and, in so doing, put them on somewhat more equal footing. Also they both engage in lots of clinging and hand-holding and snuggling and other Personal Space Failures.
+ Runner-up: Three/Liz/Brigadier, either as an OT3 or in any of its permutations. Every side of that triangle is complex and tense and fraught with personal failings and interplays of power, authority, respect, and even affection. The Doctor strains against the Brigadier’s authority, rails against him, calls him a fascist and a murderer to his face, but is still reliant on the Brig’s good graces to have any hope of repairing the TARDIS, and despite their ideological differences won’t allow anyone else to harm him; The Brigadier respects the Doctor’s expertise and seems almost fascinated by him – and yet he is quick to metaphorically yank on his chain when he steps out of line, and at the same time considers the Doctor his personal responsibility and is fiercely protective of him. Liz has little patience for the Doctor’s condescension but their relationship is more functional than hostile, and she has a kind of frustrated, head-shaking affection for him; for all that he talks down to her he seems to respect her in a way he doesn’t respect many other people. And Liz and the Brig are all about the snark and verbal barbs and bristling under orders (or, in the Brig’s case, under Liz’s superior scientific knowledge and thus authority in instances where such knowledge is essential) except when they both freak out in their own very restrained and dignified way when the other is in trouble. So, yeah. I can ship each side individually but (until Liz leaves) I always feel like I’m leaving the other one out.
Also, Ben/Polly, because even though so few of their episodes survive they have this lovely dynamic where Polly doesn’t want to like Ben as much as she does, and both argues and flirts with him as a way of covering up how deep those feelings run, and yet as so much fun with him and teases him when he’s in a bad mood and clings to him when there’s trouble. And Ben is just so eager to be impressive but still so fundamentally decent and protective of Polly despite needing her help so darn often and he goads her on and flirts right back sometimes. And they’re the only people in the world, so far as they know, who have lived through the things they’ve lived through, and they have this whole long history that nobody knows about but them, and…oh, they’re lovely.
+ Honorable mention(s): Four/Sarah (well, Doctor/Sarah, really), Four-or-Five/Adric (stop that), Jamie/Victoria (in such a way that it doesn’t conflict with Two/Jamie), Barbara/Ian (cause it’s book canon, bb), Five/Nyssa (I really think she works best with him out of all his companions), Doctor/Master (Three/Delgado!Master primarily, though I love it like pie on TV but don’t read too much fic about it), Everyone at UNIT/Everyone else at UNIT (c’mon, Bell, Hawkins, get your kits off and get in there too).
+ Crack pairing(s): Jo/Victoria, Polly/Benton, Liz/Martha, Polly/Victoria, Polly/Dodo, Jo/Jamie, One/Steven, Steven/Sarah Kingdom, One/Vicki, Liz/Shalka!Nine (counts as Old School, hush). They’re not all crack by the literal definition of crack pairing – I can take them seriously and some of them have even met in canon – but they’ve got little to no fic and some of them, no matter how seriously I *could* take them, are mostly in fun. If I talked about all of them I’d be here all day, so just enquire if you’re curious.
+ Ship everyone else seems to like, but I don't: I don’t know that there are any Old Who ships that I actively dislike. I’m not that enthusiastic about Four/Romana – I read some fic about it and recognize it as important, but I don’t squee over it like I do some of my favorites. And I want to say that I don’t like Five/Turlough but I have a feeling I’ll find Turlough less annoying if I watch more of him, so that seems unfair. I don’t think it’ll ever be one of my favorites, though.
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brewsternorth asked me about Law&Order
+OTP: At the moment, Connie/Michael. After that one episode where she had to defend a suspect and punched holes in Michael’s case I’ve started to kind of ship it in a weird, power-struggly sort of way. Doesn’t hurt that after that I get the feeling that the normally confrontational and kind of condescending Michael is a little bit scared of her. Connie so wears the pants.
+ Runner-up: If we’re talking about the entire extended L&O-verse, draw between Munch/Fin and Olivia/Alex. I can’t decide whether I ship the first of them as an actual romance or as a Heterosexual Life Partner sort of thing, but I love them and the way their personalities play off each other and the way they slowly bond over the course of the series despite having completely opposite backgrounds. And Alex/Olivia is just barely subtextual, but they still get these awesome confrontations over cases where neither of them yields and both obviously respect and admire the other even when they think they’re wrong and afterwards they go have mad hot make-up sex.
+ Honorable mention(s): …I don’t think I ship anyone else? I don’t know, I didn’t really do shipping in this fandom. Maybe Munch/Casey? I’m ashamed to admit it because of the reams of badfic surrounding it and how it comes across as Pair the Spares, but they do have a few good battles of wits in the series and match each other snark for snark, which I like in a pairing.
+ Crack pairing(s): Olivia/Brian Cassidy. Even though he was only in the first season, they did date briefly and he did confide in her about the pressures of being in SVU. I still kind of want to write fic where they meet up while he’s in Narcotics and it’s treating him even worse. And I would ship Van Buren/Ed Green or Van Buren/Lennie Briscoe if Van Buren weren’t married and Briscoe weren’t such a mess that I can’t see him getting into any kind of relationship.
+ Ship everyone else seems to like, but I don't: I’m not much of a Jack/Claire shipper anymore – not because I particularly dislike it but because there’s only so much you can do with it, you know? And I never saw any romantic chemistry between Jack and Abby or Jack and Alexandra.
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rainbowstevie asked me about NCIS
+OTP: Gibbs/Abby. The hugs! The forehead and cheek kisses! The Caf-Pows! How ferociously protective of her he is even by Gibbs standards! How she’s the only person he allows to correct him! I love Abby in general, and I really think her enthusiasm and sly wit and open expression of emotion are good for the closed-off Gibbs. Yeah, the relationship has shades of father/daughter, and I don’t doubt that part of his affection for Abby stems from wanting to have someone to care for, but he just…respects her and engages in her teasing and I think he’s kind of in love with her/wants her but feels guilty about it because she’s so young. (Deep dark secret confession: Older man wracked with guilt and shame about being attracted to a younger woman/man and refusing to act on it out of decency = one of my rather ironclad kinks. I don’t know why, it’s probably unhealthy, but there you go.)
+ Runner-up: McGee/Abby. She flirts with him, you know, all the time. And her teasing often takes on a distinctly provocative tone, which is all the more fun because McGee gets so flustered by it. And they’re prone to adorably geeking out together until Tony starts giving them Looks. Also, judging by “Kill Ari”, I kind of think McGee’s…curious about BDSM but too shy to do much beyond investigate, and you know Abby would be happy to help him explore.
+ Honorable mention(s): Ducky/Abby and Ducky/Gibbs. Ducky and Gibbs are canonically very close (or at least as close as you can be to Gibbs); Ducky knows how to read him and communicate with him in a way most of the rest of the team doesn’t. They’re very contrasting personalities but they sort of understand each other, and I personally like the contrast between Ducky’s cool temper and Gibbs’ repressed Gibbs!rage. Also, Ducky is always a perfect solicitous gentleman around Abby and holds her in very high esteem, and while he’ll offer advice or comfort her if she needs it he never imposes on her and respects her boundaries and her independence. Also, she’s unfazed by his profession and he’s unfazed by her attire despite his age, and they’re both layered and surprising people with more in common than they probably think they have.
+ Crack pairing(s): I don’t know if I have one? Maybe Gibbs/Ziva. Or Abby/Kate. THE SHOW NEVER SAID THEY DIDN’T.
+ Ship everyone else seems to like, but I don't: Tony/Gibbs is apparently the Big Slash Ship in this fandom, but I honestly don’t see it. They have the sort of complex paternal relationship that I normally like, but for some reason this one doesn’t go anywhere for me. I think despite Tony’s storied sex life I find him a little too immature to ship with anyone; he’s like a big kid in a man’s body. It doesn’t help that Tony vacillates, for me, between “lovable man-child with a fundamentally decent interior” and “I’m going to start slapping you now and I may never, ever stop”.
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gorengal asked me about CSI: Vegas
+OTP: Nick/Warrick! In the early seasons they’re teasing and sweet; as the series progresses we see more depth and intensity to their friendship, and they’re each so clearly the most important person to the other, understanding and responding to each other in a way few other people on the team do. And they still joke and kid and have an honestly good relationship at the best of times, which I love. Also, “CSI-3 seniority, sweetie.” :D
Yeah, I basically stopped watching the show after Warrick got Character Derailed. Maybe you could tell.
+ Runner-up: Warrick/Catherine or Catherine/Greg. Dammit all, Catherine deserves a successful relationship after every single one she’s had on the series has ended either disappointingly or homicidally. And I though she and Warrick had great chemistry in the early seasons and exchanged a lot of sly, knowing looks; with Grissom off in his own head Warrick seemed to be the closest person on equal footing with Catherine, though he’s still her subordinate. And…okay, fine, Catherine/Greg is mostly due to Lady Heather’s comments that Catherine would make a good dominatrix combined with Greg’s flirtatiousness and my sneaking suspicion that he’s a bit subbier than he likes to let people think he is.
+ Honorable mention(s): Grissom/Sara (I like how it was mostly played out offscreen, but I thought it had a few problems, and I don’t really seek out fic for it), Sara/Greg (I like the way her cynicism plays against his exterior bubbliness and how he seems to be able to draw a laugh out of her), Grissom/Catherine (for the snark, mainly, as I think an actual relationship would be something of a trainwreck).
+ Crack pairing(s): Greg/Lady Heather. Again, canon doesn’t say they didn’t. And Greg did shove markers up his nose that one time. And seems willing to at least don showgirl getup for lolz. Surely Lady Heather could make something of that.
+ Ship everyone else seems to like, but I don't: Nick/Greg. It’s another one of those really prevalent, popular ships that I simply don’t understand the origins or appeal of at all (a la Tony/Gibbs, above). I mean, yeah, they’re both cute, but Nick’s way closer to Warrick than he is to Greg, and in turn Greg seems a lot closer to Sara (and more flirtatious to Catherine).
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kindkit asked me about New Who:
+OTP: Er…I can’t remember what I ship here. I think Ten/Donna is my favorite at the moment, but I don’t OTP it – I can ship them with someone else easy, and I don’t think their relationship is canonically romantic (as I do for some of my other OTPs). I just like it because it’s fun and Ten and Donna bounce off each other with energy and wit, but Donna’s also exactly the sort of friend Ten needs.
Nine/Rose might be here too, as it was my first ever Doctor-companion team and it was before the Doctor/companion canonical romance started to annoy me.
+ Runner-up: Nine/Rose/Jack. It’s a little more difficult to negotiate than some of my other OT3s, because of the way Nine latches onto Rose and Jack’s status as the newcomer, but they do get such wonderful banter together. I can ship it so long as I don’t start thinking about how problematic and horrible it’d be.
+ Honorable mention(s): Rose/Handy (because it could either be a lovely, interesting mess or a screaming flaming twenty-car trainwreck depending on how you read it; neither is exactly what the other wants and Handy still hasn’t even figured out who he is), Martha/Donna (they were awesome together in the Sontaran two-parter and it makes me very sad that they didn’t spend The Doctor’s Daughter together), Rose/Donna (the only way I can be persuaded to accept JE as canon is if Rose falls for Handy because he’s part Donna and thus AWESOME. And if DoctorDonna somehow retains her memories and goes off on adventures.)
+ Crack pairing(s): Rose/alt!Sarah Jane Smith (I’ve read awesome fic for them that makes excellent use of the altverse and what Sarah’s life would have been like without the Doctor, so naturally I want more), Nine/Lynda-with-a-y (NOT DEAD NOT DEAD), Mickey/awesomeness, Rose/Jo, Martha/Liz. Also Rose/Benton and Martha/Harry, because livii is a bad influence.
+ Ship everyone else seems to like, but I don't: I don’t actually dislike the Big Three in this fandom – Ten/Rose (well okay, I don’t like their endings, but I’ve griped about that before), Ten/Martha, and Ten/Simm!Master - but I’m not that enthusiastic about them, and at various junctures all three of their fandoms have annoyed me for one reason or another, and I don’t generally seek out fic for any of them unless it comes recommended. (I used to read Ten/Martha, but what isn’t bad is often kind of painful to read what with the unrequited love and the embarrassment and Ten’s general cluelessness and there’s only so much of that I can take.) However, “everyone” doesn’t like these, so I don’t know if that counts.
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kayliemalinza (eventually) asked me about Star Trek: Reboot
+OTP: Kirk/McCoy! Plays right into all my buddy!slash weaknesses – they’re argumentative and frustrate each other but stick by one another and spend most of their time together, getting each other more than anybody else. They express affection in odd ways. They’re a pairing of a wilder, more out-there partner with a more grounded partner who’s unfazed by their weirdness. Also, nothing says “I love you” like “I might throw up on you”.
+ Runner-up: Spock/Uhura. I’m usually just okay with canon romances, but I really liked the way this one was handled – it was there, but it was understated and didn’t take over the whole plot. Granted, it also left Uhura with little to do in the second half of the movie, but that’s as much the fault of the story, as it focalized on Kirk and Spock after that, as it is of the romance. I do hope she gets to do more awesome things in the Inevitable Sequel, though.
Also Kirk/Pike, because I simply can’t pass up a senior/subordinate father/son-with-complications relationship. Also because I’m shallow and they’re both ridiculously good-looking, but then, so is everyone in this movie.
+ Honorable mention(s): Spock Prime/Kirk (because it’s deliciously complicated given that NuKirk isn’t Spock’s Kirk, not quite the one he knows, but they’re still, in a way, the same person, and now Spock’s stuck in his world, and Kirk doesn’t really know him yet and has to reconcile Spock Prime with the Spock he’s familiar with and oh, my heart), Kirk/Sulu (DEATH-DEFYING MIDAIR HUG OF GREATNESS), oh what the hell – Kirk/everyone.
+ Crack pairing(s): I really don’t know what’s crack in this fandom beyond, I don’t know, Scotty/tribble. No matter what odd combination of characters you come up with, someone’s written or drawn it. So I’ll go with the ones that I ship on spurious reasons or who haven’t met. Sulu/Pike (parking brake!), Kirk/Chekov (no real reason, but he could be all big-brothery and captainlike to him), Chekov/Scotty (Maths! Geekery! Engineering! Corrupting dubiously innocent young officers!), McCoy/Joycelyn (yes, I know they’re divorced; no, I don’t mean getting them back together; ask Kaylie, it’s kind of her fault), Chekov/Jo Grant (it’s a critical mass of cuteness, Captain!), Gaila/McCoy (GAILA LIVES).
+ Ship everyone else seems to like, but I don't: I know it’s The Original Pairing and all, but Kirk/Spock didn’t really ping me in this movie – and this was when I’d already seen the movie once and was looking for it. I’ll read it if it’s good, and I ship it on principle because hey, Kirk/everyone, but I don’t seek it out with the same appetite as Kirk/McCoy. That and the racewank over Uhura soured me on the pairing a little – it’s not fair, and I’m trying to shake the association, but there it is.
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biichan asked me about Middleman
+OTP: Tie between Wendy/Tyler and Wendy/Lacey. On the one hand, Tyler is the most unbelievably perfect boyfriend in the whole world, and he and Wendy are so adorable together it makes me flail and make undignified squeaking noises, especially when they play unbelievably violent video games together. On the other hand, Lacey is probably the most unbelievably perfect girlfriend in the whole wide world and she and Wendy make me do the same squeaking-noises thing, like during the Art Crawl – they’re the best of friends and they lean on and care for each other so much. Possibly I could resolve this with Wendy/Lacey/Tyler? I can convince myself that Lacey/Tyler is possible sometimes.
+ Runner-up: Middleman/Wendy. Look, I know I shouldn’t ship it, I know they were explicitly set up as father/daughter, but…but..damn it, I can’t help it, what do you want me to do when he gets that upset over her potential death?
+ Honorable mention(s): Middleman/Lacey. Sexy Boss Man. That’s my argument, really. I need to actually see the episode where they go on a date. And then write fic. (No, I haven’t finished the series. I don’t want it to be over. :( )
+ Crack pairing(s): Uh…1969!Middleman/Ida. More textual than you think! She wears rollerblades around him and everything. Also, Wendy/Mirror!Middleman, because I’m a shallow, shallow person.
+ Ship everyone else seems to like, but I don't: …I don’t know? I kind of like all of them, really. I guess I don’t really ship Noser with anyone, but Noser needs no shipping. Although I think I’d read him with Wendy or Lacey. I’d also read fic where he’s actually a manifestation of Kokopelli, but that’s just me.
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nentari asked me about CSI: Miami
+OTP: Horatio/Marisol. Yes, still. It’s just…the more I look at and think about their relationship, the more I realize how dark you could make it if you wanted to – you could go into how direly he needs someone to rely on him, how much he craves being needed, and counterpose that with how she wants someone to take care of her, how she seems to know how to get what she wants but is used to having people give her what she wants in one way or another. It’s kind of dysfunctional, and yet still kind of sweet, and I don’t know if they honestly would have made it past the first year of marriage if she’d survived but it at least would have been interesting.
Also, Alana de la Garza. Hello, girlcrush.
+ Runner-up: Horatio/Yelina and Horatio/Ryan. The former’s pretty much canon, and it comes so close to working but it runs headfirst into the roadblock of Horatio’s issues, which are kind of what make it interesting. Plus, I mentioned that the women we see Horatio with tend to be people who need him and who he can offer a shoulder and a “there, there” to; Yelina doesn’t need him for that but seems to like him anyway, which in turn intrigues and attracts him but also discomforts him to the point where he pushes her away. And Yelina, for her part, wants to pursue him and knows he wants the same but doesn’t insist on overstepping those boundaries they’ve built around each other, suggesting that those rules and barriers are a safety measure for her as well, perhaps for denying her own dissatisfaction with her marriage or for preventing what she suspects might be another ill-advised relationship.
Horatio/Ryan is the hell all over Season 3 and 4 and I don’t know why more people don’t ship it. Ryan’s the only person Horatio trusts during the debacle with the lab mole, and Ryan in turn looks up to him and prizes his confidence in him and turns to him both for help and for approval. Horatio trusts Ryan more than anyone else at the lab even though Ryan’s the newcomer among them, the one that’s worked with them for the shortest time – though it’s interesting to note that he was the one that picked out and accepted Ryan for the job. Hmm.
+ Honorable mention(s): Calleigh/Eric, or at least the more subtextual flirtation of the early season before it became this big dramatic Thing that ate up Calleigh’s character and most of Eric’s. Eric/Speed, especially given Eric’s hallucinations after his (first of, what, fifty?) headshot. Horatio/Stelter, because what the hell else did they want us to think of that, seriously, the constant attempts to reconcile and the rejected offers of sympathy and the inexplicably matching clothes point me in a certain direction that I suspect many viewers can follow.
+ Crack pairing(s): Ryan/Alexx. I can’t sincerely ship it since Alexx is married and I don’t want to break up her marriage, but she’s very protective of Ryan and he of her, and they’re always right by each other’s side when one of them’s injured or in danger, and she calls him her hero that one time, and he’s clearly in awe of her but tries to hide it. And she dotes on him a bit even if she calls him on his screw-ups as often as she does Eric. It’s all a bit mother/son, which makes it extra-icky that I ship it, but whatever.
+ Ship everyone else seems to like, but I don't: Eric/Ryan. Again, I just really don’t see it. I don’t see their rivalry as sexual tension; I can’t really see how it’d even go there, and to be honest Eric reads to me as almost aggressively straight. I mean, he doesn’t have to be, but he does have, um, a good deal of evidence in favor of him being at least a female-preferential bisexual.
Also Horatio/Speed. I guess I can see where it’s coming from, but I started watching the show after Speed had already died, so I didn’t latch onto him and start shipping him with people the way I did Ryan. And…I don’t know. Just didn’t click with me, I suppose.
Ugh. SLEEPS. Needs it now. *collapses* Memes are so stressful sometimes.
Ahem. The answers to the shipping meme, all 7 pages in Word of them. I talk a lot.
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elyssadc asked me about Doctor Who (Old-School)+OTP: Tie between Three/Jo and Two/Jamie (only reason I don’t write loads of fic for the latter is because I find them both maddeningly difficult to write). I’m not sure if they’re my actual OTPs or if I’m just enamored of them at the moment, but they’re both built on very deep friendship and care and actually address the power imbalance between the Doctor and his companions rather than pretend it doesn’t exist, and, in so doing, put them on somewhat more equal footing. Also they both engage in lots of clinging and hand-holding and snuggling and other Personal Space Failures.
+ Runner-up: Three/Liz/Brigadier, either as an OT3 or in any of its permutations. Every side of that triangle is complex and tense and fraught with personal failings and interplays of power, authority, respect, and even affection. The Doctor strains against the Brigadier’s authority, rails against him, calls him a fascist and a murderer to his face, but is still reliant on the Brig’s good graces to have any hope of repairing the TARDIS, and despite their ideological differences won’t allow anyone else to harm him; The Brigadier respects the Doctor’s expertise and seems almost fascinated by him – and yet he is quick to metaphorically yank on his chain when he steps out of line, and at the same time considers the Doctor his personal responsibility and is fiercely protective of him. Liz has little patience for the Doctor’s condescension but their relationship is more functional than hostile, and she has a kind of frustrated, head-shaking affection for him; for all that he talks down to her he seems to respect her in a way he doesn’t respect many other people. And Liz and the Brig are all about the snark and verbal barbs and bristling under orders (or, in the Brig’s case, under Liz’s superior scientific knowledge and thus authority in instances where such knowledge is essential) except when they both freak out in their own very restrained and dignified way when the other is in trouble. So, yeah. I can ship each side individually but (until Liz leaves) I always feel like I’m leaving the other one out.
Also, Ben/Polly, because even though so few of their episodes survive they have this lovely dynamic where Polly doesn’t want to like Ben as much as she does, and both argues and flirts with him as a way of covering up how deep those feelings run, and yet as so much fun with him and teases him when he’s in a bad mood and clings to him when there’s trouble. And Ben is just so eager to be impressive but still so fundamentally decent and protective of Polly despite needing her help so darn often and he goads her on and flirts right back sometimes. And they’re the only people in the world, so far as they know, who have lived through the things they’ve lived through, and they have this whole long history that nobody knows about but them, and…oh, they’re lovely.
+ Honorable mention(s): Four/Sarah (well, Doctor/Sarah, really), Four-or-Five/Adric (stop that), Jamie/Victoria (in such a way that it doesn’t conflict with Two/Jamie), Barbara/Ian (cause it’s book canon, bb), Five/Nyssa (I really think she works best with him out of all his companions), Doctor/Master (Three/Delgado!Master primarily, though I love it like pie on TV but don’t read too much fic about it), Everyone at UNIT/Everyone else at UNIT (c’mon, Bell, Hawkins, get your kits off and get in there too).
+ Crack pairing(s): Jo/Victoria, Polly/Benton, Liz/Martha, Polly/Victoria, Polly/Dodo, Jo/Jamie, One/Steven, Steven/Sarah Kingdom, One/Vicki, Liz/Shalka!Nine (counts as Old School, hush). They’re not all crack by the literal definition of crack pairing – I can take them seriously and some of them have even met in canon – but they’ve got little to no fic and some of them, no matter how seriously I *could* take them, are mostly in fun. If I talked about all of them I’d be here all day, so just enquire if you’re curious.
+ Ship everyone else seems to like, but I don't: I don’t know that there are any Old Who ships that I actively dislike. I’m not that enthusiastic about Four/Romana – I read some fic about it and recognize it as important, but I don’t squee over it like I do some of my favorites. And I want to say that I don’t like Five/Turlough but I have a feeling I’ll find Turlough less annoying if I watch more of him, so that seems unfair. I don’t think it’ll ever be one of my favorites, though.
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brewsternorth asked me about Law&Order+OTP: At the moment, Connie/Michael. After that one episode where she had to defend a suspect and punched holes in Michael’s case I’ve started to kind of ship it in a weird, power-struggly sort of way. Doesn’t hurt that after that I get the feeling that the normally confrontational and kind of condescending Michael is a little bit scared of her. Connie so wears the pants.
+ Runner-up: If we’re talking about the entire extended L&O-verse, draw between Munch/Fin and Olivia/Alex. I can’t decide whether I ship the first of them as an actual romance or as a Heterosexual Life Partner sort of thing, but I love them and the way their personalities play off each other and the way they slowly bond over the course of the series despite having completely opposite backgrounds. And Alex/Olivia is just barely subtextual, but they still get these awesome confrontations over cases where neither of them yields and both obviously respect and admire the other even when they think they’re wrong and afterwards they go have mad hot make-up sex.
+ Honorable mention(s): …I don’t think I ship anyone else? I don’t know, I didn’t really do shipping in this fandom. Maybe Munch/Casey? I’m ashamed to admit it because of the reams of badfic surrounding it and how it comes across as Pair the Spares, but they do have a few good battles of wits in the series and match each other snark for snark, which I like in a pairing.
+ Crack pairing(s): Olivia/Brian Cassidy. Even though he was only in the first season, they did date briefly and he did confide in her about the pressures of being in SVU. I still kind of want to write fic where they meet up while he’s in Narcotics and it’s treating him even worse. And I would ship Van Buren/Ed Green or Van Buren/Lennie Briscoe if Van Buren weren’t married and Briscoe weren’t such a mess that I can’t see him getting into any kind of relationship.
+ Ship everyone else seems to like, but I don't: I’m not much of a Jack/Claire shipper anymore – not because I particularly dislike it but because there’s only so much you can do with it, you know? And I never saw any romantic chemistry between Jack and Abby or Jack and Alexandra.
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rainbowstevie asked me about NCIS+OTP: Gibbs/Abby. The hugs! The forehead and cheek kisses! The Caf-Pows! How ferociously protective of her he is even by Gibbs standards! How she’s the only person he allows to correct him! I love Abby in general, and I really think her enthusiasm and sly wit and open expression of emotion are good for the closed-off Gibbs. Yeah, the relationship has shades of father/daughter, and I don’t doubt that part of his affection for Abby stems from wanting to have someone to care for, but he just…respects her and engages in her teasing and I think he’s kind of in love with her/wants her but feels guilty about it because she’s so young. (Deep dark secret confession: Older man wracked with guilt and shame about being attracted to a younger woman/man and refusing to act on it out of decency = one of my rather ironclad kinks. I don’t know why, it’s probably unhealthy, but there you go.)
+ Runner-up: McGee/Abby. She flirts with him, you know, all the time. And her teasing often takes on a distinctly provocative tone, which is all the more fun because McGee gets so flustered by it. And they’re prone to adorably geeking out together until Tony starts giving them Looks. Also, judging by “Kill Ari”, I kind of think McGee’s…curious about BDSM but too shy to do much beyond investigate, and you know Abby would be happy to help him explore.
+ Honorable mention(s): Ducky/Abby and Ducky/Gibbs. Ducky and Gibbs are canonically very close (or at least as close as you can be to Gibbs); Ducky knows how to read him and communicate with him in a way most of the rest of the team doesn’t. They’re very contrasting personalities but they sort of understand each other, and I personally like the contrast between Ducky’s cool temper and Gibbs’ repressed Gibbs!rage. Also, Ducky is always a perfect solicitous gentleman around Abby and holds her in very high esteem, and while he’ll offer advice or comfort her if she needs it he never imposes on her and respects her boundaries and her independence. Also, she’s unfazed by his profession and he’s unfazed by her attire despite his age, and they’re both layered and surprising people with more in common than they probably think they have.
+ Crack pairing(s): I don’t know if I have one? Maybe Gibbs/Ziva. Or Abby/Kate. THE SHOW NEVER SAID THEY DIDN’T.
+ Ship everyone else seems to like, but I don't: Tony/Gibbs is apparently the Big Slash Ship in this fandom, but I honestly don’t see it. They have the sort of complex paternal relationship that I normally like, but for some reason this one doesn’t go anywhere for me. I think despite Tony’s storied sex life I find him a little too immature to ship with anyone; he’s like a big kid in a man’s body. It doesn’t help that Tony vacillates, for me, between “lovable man-child with a fundamentally decent interior” and “I’m going to start slapping you now and I may never, ever stop”.
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gorengal asked me about CSI: Vegas+OTP: Nick/Warrick! In the early seasons they’re teasing and sweet; as the series progresses we see more depth and intensity to their friendship, and they’re each so clearly the most important person to the other, understanding and responding to each other in a way few other people on the team do. And they still joke and kid and have an honestly good relationship at the best of times, which I love. Also, “CSI-3 seniority, sweetie.” :D
Yeah, I basically stopped watching the show after Warrick got Character Derailed. Maybe you could tell.
+ Runner-up: Warrick/Catherine or Catherine/Greg. Dammit all, Catherine deserves a successful relationship after every single one she’s had on the series has ended either disappointingly or homicidally. And I though she and Warrick had great chemistry in the early seasons and exchanged a lot of sly, knowing looks; with Grissom off in his own head Warrick seemed to be the closest person on equal footing with Catherine, though he’s still her subordinate. And…okay, fine, Catherine/Greg is mostly due to Lady Heather’s comments that Catherine would make a good dominatrix combined with Greg’s flirtatiousness and my sneaking suspicion that he’s a bit subbier than he likes to let people think he is.
+ Honorable mention(s): Grissom/Sara (I like how it was mostly played out offscreen, but I thought it had a few problems, and I don’t really seek out fic for it), Sara/Greg (I like the way her cynicism plays against his exterior bubbliness and how he seems to be able to draw a laugh out of her), Grissom/Catherine (for the snark, mainly, as I think an actual relationship would be something of a trainwreck).
+ Crack pairing(s): Greg/Lady Heather. Again, canon doesn’t say they didn’t. And Greg did shove markers up his nose that one time. And seems willing to at least don showgirl getup for lolz. Surely Lady Heather could make something of that.
+ Ship everyone else seems to like, but I don't: Nick/Greg. It’s another one of those really prevalent, popular ships that I simply don’t understand the origins or appeal of at all (a la Tony/Gibbs, above). I mean, yeah, they’re both cute, but Nick’s way closer to Warrick than he is to Greg, and in turn Greg seems a lot closer to Sara (and more flirtatious to Catherine).
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kindkit asked me about New Who:+OTP: Er…I can’t remember what I ship here. I think Ten/Donna is my favorite at the moment, but I don’t OTP it – I can ship them with someone else easy, and I don’t think their relationship is canonically romantic (as I do for some of my other OTPs). I just like it because it’s fun and Ten and Donna bounce off each other with energy and wit, but Donna’s also exactly the sort of friend Ten needs.
Nine/Rose might be here too, as it was my first ever Doctor-companion team and it was before the Doctor/companion canonical romance started to annoy me.
+ Runner-up: Nine/Rose/Jack. It’s a little more difficult to negotiate than some of my other OT3s, because of the way Nine latches onto Rose and Jack’s status as the newcomer, but they do get such wonderful banter together. I can ship it so long as I don’t start thinking about how problematic and horrible it’d be.
+ Honorable mention(s): Rose/Handy (because it could either be a lovely, interesting mess or a screaming flaming twenty-car trainwreck depending on how you read it; neither is exactly what the other wants and Handy still hasn’t even figured out who he is), Martha/Donna (they were awesome together in the Sontaran two-parter and it makes me very sad that they didn’t spend The Doctor’s Daughter together), Rose/Donna (the only way I can be persuaded to accept JE as canon is if Rose falls for Handy because he’s part Donna and thus AWESOME. And if DoctorDonna somehow retains her memories and goes off on adventures.)
+ Crack pairing(s): Rose/alt!Sarah Jane Smith (I’ve read awesome fic for them that makes excellent use of the altverse and what Sarah’s life would have been like without the Doctor, so naturally I want more), Nine/Lynda-with-a-y (NOT DEAD NOT DEAD), Mickey/awesomeness, Rose/Jo, Martha/Liz. Also Rose/Benton and Martha/Harry, because livii is a bad influence.
+ Ship everyone else seems to like, but I don't: I don’t actually dislike the Big Three in this fandom – Ten/Rose (well okay, I don’t like their endings, but I’ve griped about that before), Ten/Martha, and Ten/Simm!Master - but I’m not that enthusiastic about them, and at various junctures all three of their fandoms have annoyed me for one reason or another, and I don’t generally seek out fic for any of them unless it comes recommended. (I used to read Ten/Martha, but what isn’t bad is often kind of painful to read what with the unrequited love and the embarrassment and Ten’s general cluelessness and there’s only so much of that I can take.) However, “everyone” doesn’t like these, so I don’t know if that counts.
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kayliemalinza (eventually) asked me about Star Trek: Reboot+OTP: Kirk/McCoy! Plays right into all my buddy!slash weaknesses – they’re argumentative and frustrate each other but stick by one another and spend most of their time together, getting each other more than anybody else. They express affection in odd ways. They’re a pairing of a wilder, more out-there partner with a more grounded partner who’s unfazed by their weirdness. Also, nothing says “I love you” like “I might throw up on you”.
+ Runner-up: Spock/Uhura. I’m usually just okay with canon romances, but I really liked the way this one was handled – it was there, but it was understated and didn’t take over the whole plot. Granted, it also left Uhura with little to do in the second half of the movie, but that’s as much the fault of the story, as it focalized on Kirk and Spock after that, as it is of the romance. I do hope she gets to do more awesome things in the Inevitable Sequel, though.
Also Kirk/Pike, because I simply can’t pass up a senior/subordinate father/son-with-complications relationship. Also because I’m shallow and they’re both ridiculously good-looking, but then, so is everyone in this movie.
+ Honorable mention(s): Spock Prime/Kirk (because it’s deliciously complicated given that NuKirk isn’t Spock’s Kirk, not quite the one he knows, but they’re still, in a way, the same person, and now Spock’s stuck in his world, and Kirk doesn’t really know him yet and has to reconcile Spock Prime with the Spock he’s familiar with and oh, my heart), Kirk/Sulu (DEATH-DEFYING MIDAIR HUG OF GREATNESS), oh what the hell – Kirk/everyone.
+ Crack pairing(s): I really don’t know what’s crack in this fandom beyond, I don’t know, Scotty/tribble. No matter what odd combination of characters you come up with, someone’s written or drawn it. So I’ll go with the ones that I ship on spurious reasons or who haven’t met. Sulu/Pike (parking brake!), Kirk/Chekov (no real reason, but he could be all big-brothery and captainlike to him), Chekov/Scotty (Maths! Geekery! Engineering! Corrupting dubiously innocent young officers!), McCoy/Joycelyn (yes, I know they’re divorced; no, I don’t mean getting them back together; ask Kaylie, it’s kind of her fault), Chekov/Jo Grant (it’s a critical mass of cuteness, Captain!), Gaila/McCoy (GAILA LIVES).
+ Ship everyone else seems to like, but I don't: I know it’s The Original Pairing and all, but Kirk/Spock didn’t really ping me in this movie – and this was when I’d already seen the movie once and was looking for it. I’ll read it if it’s good, and I ship it on principle because hey, Kirk/everyone, but I don’t seek it out with the same appetite as Kirk/McCoy. That and the racewank over Uhura soured me on the pairing a little – it’s not fair, and I’m trying to shake the association, but there it is.
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biichan asked me about Middleman+OTP: Tie between Wendy/Tyler and Wendy/Lacey. On the one hand, Tyler is the most unbelievably perfect boyfriend in the whole world, and he and Wendy are so adorable together it makes me flail and make undignified squeaking noises, especially when they play unbelievably violent video games together. On the other hand, Lacey is probably the most unbelievably perfect girlfriend in the whole wide world and she and Wendy make me do the same squeaking-noises thing, like during the Art Crawl – they’re the best of friends and they lean on and care for each other so much. Possibly I could resolve this with Wendy/Lacey/Tyler? I can convince myself that Lacey/Tyler is possible sometimes.
+ Runner-up: Middleman/Wendy. Look, I know I shouldn’t ship it, I know they were explicitly set up as father/daughter, but…but..damn it, I can’t help it, what do you want me to do when he gets that upset over her potential death?
+ Honorable mention(s): Middleman/Lacey. Sexy Boss Man. That’s my argument, really. I need to actually see the episode where they go on a date. And then write fic. (No, I haven’t finished the series. I don’t want it to be over. :( )
+ Crack pairing(s): Uh…1969!Middleman/Ida. More textual than you think! She wears rollerblades around him and everything. Also, Wendy/Mirror!Middleman, because I’m a shallow, shallow person.
+ Ship everyone else seems to like, but I don't: …I don’t know? I kind of like all of them, really. I guess I don’t really ship Noser with anyone, but Noser needs no shipping. Although I think I’d read him with Wendy or Lacey. I’d also read fic where he’s actually a manifestation of Kokopelli, but that’s just me.
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nentari asked me about CSI: Miami+OTP: Horatio/Marisol. Yes, still. It’s just…the more I look at and think about their relationship, the more I realize how dark you could make it if you wanted to – you could go into how direly he needs someone to rely on him, how much he craves being needed, and counterpose that with how she wants someone to take care of her, how she seems to know how to get what she wants but is used to having people give her what she wants in one way or another. It’s kind of dysfunctional, and yet still kind of sweet, and I don’t know if they honestly would have made it past the first year of marriage if she’d survived but it at least would have been interesting.
Also, Alana de la Garza. Hello, girlcrush.
+ Runner-up: Horatio/Yelina and Horatio/Ryan. The former’s pretty much canon, and it comes so close to working but it runs headfirst into the roadblock of Horatio’s issues, which are kind of what make it interesting. Plus, I mentioned that the women we see Horatio with tend to be people who need him and who he can offer a shoulder and a “there, there” to; Yelina doesn’t need him for that but seems to like him anyway, which in turn intrigues and attracts him but also discomforts him to the point where he pushes her away. And Yelina, for her part, wants to pursue him and knows he wants the same but doesn’t insist on overstepping those boundaries they’ve built around each other, suggesting that those rules and barriers are a safety measure for her as well, perhaps for denying her own dissatisfaction with her marriage or for preventing what she suspects might be another ill-advised relationship.
Horatio/Ryan is the hell all over Season 3 and 4 and I don’t know why more people don’t ship it. Ryan’s the only person Horatio trusts during the debacle with the lab mole, and Ryan in turn looks up to him and prizes his confidence in him and turns to him both for help and for approval. Horatio trusts Ryan more than anyone else at the lab even though Ryan’s the newcomer among them, the one that’s worked with them for the shortest time – though it’s interesting to note that he was the one that picked out and accepted Ryan for the job. Hmm.
+ Honorable mention(s): Calleigh/Eric, or at least the more subtextual flirtation of the early season before it became this big dramatic Thing that ate up Calleigh’s character and most of Eric’s. Eric/Speed, especially given Eric’s hallucinations after his (first of, what, fifty?) headshot. Horatio/Stelter, because what the hell else did they want us to think of that, seriously, the constant attempts to reconcile and the rejected offers of sympathy and the inexplicably matching clothes point me in a certain direction that I suspect many viewers can follow.
+ Crack pairing(s): Ryan/Alexx. I can’t sincerely ship it since Alexx is married and I don’t want to break up her marriage, but she’s very protective of Ryan and he of her, and they’re always right by each other’s side when one of them’s injured or in danger, and she calls him her hero that one time, and he’s clearly in awe of her but tries to hide it. And she dotes on him a bit even if she calls him on his screw-ups as often as she does Eric. It’s all a bit mother/son, which makes it extra-icky that I ship it, but whatever.
+ Ship everyone else seems to like, but I don't: Eric/Ryan. Again, I just really don’t see it. I don’t see their rivalry as sexual tension; I can’t really see how it’d even go there, and to be honest Eric reads to me as almost aggressively straight. I mean, he doesn’t have to be, but he does have, um, a good deal of evidence in favor of him being at least a female-preferential bisexual.
Also Horatio/Speed. I guess I can see where it’s coming from, but I started watching the show after Speed had already died, so I didn’t latch onto him and start shipping him with people the way I did Ryan. And…I don’t know. Just didn’t click with me, I suppose.
Ugh. SLEEPS. Needs it now. *collapses* Memes are so stressful sometimes.
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::nodnod:: Yes yes, buddy!slash is very reasonable. And with the archetypal duo we're discussing here, you still get the conflict/tension, frustration and occasional desire for revenge that I find attractive in FoeYay.
Infantilization is squicky, and also calling someone "Daddy" when, you know, they re one. There's a lot of Kirk/McCoy daddy!kink floating around that I always scroll past because McCoy has a daughter (at least in book canon and in my personal canon) and he's Southern, so she'll call him Daddy forever. I'm sure other readers and people with this kink IRL can differentiate and compartmentalize, but I can't.
I have some thoughts on a non-slash Kirk+Pike involving regulated corporal punishment in extreme circumstances (e.g., take some whacks or be expelled) where Pike is all ARRGH STOP MAKING ME DO THIS and Kirk is all like GRR NO I'M STUBBORN. and Pike is just disgusted that it's come to this and his disappointment is what really hurts Kirk.
Slash-wise, there's lots of fun things about Kirk grudgingly seeking Pike's approval, Pike mercilessly refusing to take Kirk seriously until he shapes up, Kirk realizes that Pike is a frelling awesome captain, etc.
Fun fact: Captain Pike was originally meant to be the main character, but when the studio requested a different pilot the actor decided to pursue his movie career instead. Rather than bringing in a different actor for the same character, Gene Roddenberry just changed the name and a few details (you'll notice their names still sound like, though.) So the idea of Pike being a good example for Kirk, of Pike being the kind of captain that Kirk wants to become, has deep roots in canon.
Also, Pike is just so much fun as an authority figure. My reasons for that are not shallow. Promise.
(brief tangent: how incredibly subby is McCoy, honestly? First the commander on the Shuttle: "Sit down or I'll make you sit down!" McCoy: (sits down) and Pike: "We'll have words about this later." McCoy: "Yes, sir" (looks anxious) and TOS, where Spock, in multiple episodes, advances upon McCoy in his smooth, threatening Vulcan way and then performs violence upon the doctor, and McCoy just freezes while Spock approaches, watching him with wide eyes, and does absolutely nothing to defend himself. I mean, sure McCoy is cranky and has a sharp tongue, but make a single threatening move and he flashes his belly.
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After that, Spock backs McCoy up against a wall and mind-rapes him. Like so:
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also calling someone "Daddy" when, you know, they are one.
Exactly. That, and maybe it's because I really, honestly cannot wrap my brain around the whole Oedipal thing. I get it in concept, but it seems so bassackwards that I can't buy it except as a very unconscious, subtextual thing - rivalry, or tension between child and parent, or...I don't know, something, but whenever it goes so far as explicit sexual attachment I just stop buying it, and the idea of someone in the "father" position (especially someone who's actually a father) wanting something like that from their "child" just...doesn't work. But YKINMK and all that.
(I'm ashamed to admit that I actually did write infantilization of a sort once, mostly to see if I could, but even then I couldn't take it all the way to Daddy-kink. And it was infantilization-of-one-character-via-mind-altering-spores-and-the-other-character-serving-as-their-caretaker-and-wracked-with-guilt-over-how-appealing-they-find-the-whole-thing rather than infantilization proper. Which is probably even worse, and has overtones of Special Bonus Kink-Shaming which was why I never posted it, but I felt I should get that off my chest.)
Ooooh, I do love the corporal-punishment idea - it plays with the layers of their relationship and manages to be kind of emotionally-kinky without being actually shippy or casting the relationship as sexual, which I think is very sneaky and cool of you. I think there might be a plausibility issue with Starfleet administering corporal punishment, but it's nothing you couldn't handwave away so long as you did go to the effort of handwaving. I do love the shippy ideas, especially because I'd love to see how you reconcile Kirk's admiration of and striving to be like Pike with his more confrontational and defiant personality, and especially the way movie!Kirk thinks about his father compared to TOS!Kirk - just based on what the movie says about it movie!Pike would be even more of a mould for Kirk to fit snce he wouldn't have the additional influence of his father (at least, not directly - he'd only have his legacy, which isn't the same thing as being influenced by a person).
I did know that Pike was supposed to be the main character (Dad told me when I informed him that Pike was in the new movie, which made him happy - I think he rather likes Captain Pike himself), and I like your reading of how that translates to Kirk's characterization.
To be fair to McCoy, evil!bearded!Spock is a rather intimidating figure. But hey, sub!McCoy makes perfect sense to me - he's a doctor, after all not a bricklayer I'M SORRY I COULDN'T HELP IT, and doesn't particularly like space travel - command and giving orders aren't his thing to begin with. And the people he *can* boss around are patients, usually already vulnerable and not in a position to give orders or confront him in any meaningful way.
Also, the first time I looked at the comment above, with the .gifs, I had the medley from the end of the film Kinky Boots playing on my iTunes. You know, the one with Chiwetel Ejiofor in drag singing "These Boots Are Made For Walkin" and "Cha Cha Heels" and the like.
It made the scene a little weird.
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Oh hai, I think Fall Break for both of us is next week.... I could come up Sat. night (Oct 10) and leave Tuesday night or Wednesday morning (13 or 14.) Please, PLEASE tell me everyone will be staying on campus.
I can actually understand the sexual component because I, er, can't differentiate between sexual and non-sexual contact/affection all that well. I guess what squicks me is the infantilization and the caretaker mystique, since being dependent was hugely frustrating as a child and I have no patience for or desire to have someone be dependent upon me.
That being said, I'm totally cool with drug-based incapacitation or infantilization being sexualized, so your alien spore idea sounds really nifty. What pairing was it, out of curiosity?
Emotionally kinky! That's an awesome phrase! Yes, yes, this hypothetical fic was definitely emotionally kinky, especially the main engine of the encounters is Kirk's Daddy Issues.
I don't think I need to handwave the corporal punishment so much as properly establish it (which I think is what you meant anyway.) Starfleet, as a fictional device, is based hugely on the British Navy (TOS used the bo'sun's whistle as a communicator sound effect) which has corporal punishment coming out the wazoo. As a diegetic institution, it probably functions a lot like the US military or Special Forces. Unlike a school, Starfleet has ownership over both the mental and physical capabilities of its members. This naturally allows for physical punishment in a way that (I personally feel) schools do not.* In other words, you probably wouldn't think it was weird at all if Pike told Kirk to "Drop and give me twenty!"
Of course, there is a distinction between making a boot camp grunt run laps or do push-ups, which are productive exercises in other contexts, and beating them with an implement, which has no other purpose than to cause pain. The advantage of a dedicated punishment is that it can be more carefully regulated (E.G., this offense deserves this number of hits, etc.) and thus prevent possible abuse ("Drop and give me twenty thousand!")
The way I've got it set up, it's a largely archaic rule that most people aren't even aware of, and Pike only digs it up because he can't let Kirk get expelled. Of course, since it's an official disciplinary measure meant to "wipe" a certain number of demerits from Kirk's record, it has to be documented and then Kirk has to sign the paperwork. He also gets CC'd when Pike submits the report to the Academy administration, and boy howdy doesn't Kirk just fucking love that. So yeah, the main focus of the fic is the emotional calisthenics rather than the physical act.
*I suspect corporal punishment in schools arose from a conflation of the relationship between teacher and student and the relationship between parent and child. Parents, from whose physical bodies children are literally derived, have a certain natural right to their children's bodies that an unrelated adult does not. Obviously, the right can be abused, and whether or not corporal punishment is an appropriate form of discipline is a hugely complex and individual issue.
I'm literally running out the door to work right now so I'll just post this comment and reply to the rest when I get back tonight.
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I guess what squicks me is the infantilization and the caretaker mystique
Funny thing is, I don't understand the "infantilization" aspect in its extreme form (which is how I most often see it represented in kinkfic - adult diapers and such), but the caretaker as an eroticized figure makes sense to me. I kind of see it as another aspect of power play - the sense of having that much control over someone, and having someone need you not just in an emotional but literal physical way, carries a tinge of dominance along with the responsibility-and-care tender feelings. I'm not sure why my mind applies hard brakes so soon as those aspects are equated with a parent-child relationship, but it does.
What pairing was it, out of curiosity?
...it was Three/Brigadier with the Doctor as the one drugged, except his mental capacity was closer to late childhood/early preadolescence than infancy because it was easier to write that way and the Brig was in charge of keeping him out of trouble until Liz found a way to cure him. STOP THAT. I CAN HEAR YOU JUDGING ME OVER THE INTERNET. D:
Yes, I did mean establish it. Thank you for thinking of words when I am too incompetent to do so. And I guess I went with Starfleet as more U.S. military and thus more accustomed to the informal use of corporal punishment, trial-by-fire, physical activity as punishment (i.e. 'drop and give me twenty') rather than codified corporal punishment. The latter strikes me as a more boarding-school thing*, but I wasn't aware of its prevalence in the British military, so that makes a little more sense in context.
*The reason it brings boarding-school, specifically, to mind is largely because the student living at school makes it much easier to blur the line between parent/child and student/teacher. Also, the students aren't yet considered adults, and because of its association with punishing children corporal punishment thus becomes tied to an adult punishing a child; the students at Starfleet are young, but they're not children.
That said, I do like the way you set it up as an archaic rule that Pike digs up, as it adds yet more layers to the whole thing because Pike's trying to drag Kirk out of his own messes but is doing that by, you know, taking a whack at him if he has to. Kirk having to sign off on the thing is just another non-physical slap to the face, because the only thing Kirk hates worse than someone else telling him he screwed up is having to admit himself that he screwed up. Basically what it all amounts to is that I find this all a bit fascinating and am looking forward to seeing what you do with it. :)
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fun fact: i originally typed YOU DUCK
I'm not sure why my mind applies hard brakes so soon as those aspects are equated with a parent-child relationship, but it does.
Maybe because there's no fail-safe for consent in a parent-child relationship? With two adults, either one can walk away at any time, even allowing for complicated emotional attachment. With parent-child relationships, the child has diminished legal status and is unequivocally dependent upon the parent. They can't call it quits if the power dynamic sours. :/ Also, well, this isn't really something people can be objective about. I'm just guessing here, but you, Muppet, probably don't want to have sex with your own parents.
i am judging you to be AWESOME. this sounds muy muy interesting, especially since the role reversal is so extreme. The Doctor is so mentally advanced that he sometimes infantilizes adult humans, and now Brig gets his
cuddlyrevenge....I wasn't aware of its prevalence in the British military, so that makes a little more sense in context.
Oh pfft, you watched Mutiny and Retribution, the Hornblower movies. I know you did because Paul McGann yelling broke your brain. Remember Wellard getting the snot caned out of him? :( Gene Roddenberry wanted Kirk to be Hornblower in Space, but I don't think he intended that to be a part of it. >P
What's interesting here is that I feel the need to lean heavily upon the British mode, since they're historically more brutal with their children (CP in schools, death and destruction in Doctor Who, etc.) with the sort of pragmatism born from life that is "nasty, brutish, and short." ST:TOS, of course, is pure American idealism; children should be coddled and protected from potential hardship, rather than be toughened up so they can better endure inevitable hardship. So yeah, Pike administering corporal punishment is an odd fit, but I'm all gung-ho about tweaking the universe anyway so why not throw that in the mix, too?
Oh, and just to clarify-- Pike will totally tell Kirk to "Drop and give me twenty!" on a regular basis. >P
it adds yet more layers to the whole thing because Pike's trying to drag Kirk out of his own messes but is doing that by, you know, taking a whack at him if he has to.
That breaks my heart, actually, because Kirk does not react well at ALL and packs up all his stuff to leave the Academy before he realizes (maybe after talking with Bones) that if he leaves, then he just got the shit bet out of him for nothing. It takes him months before he can talk to Pike again, though, and IT'S SO SAD because Pike had the best of intentions and the worst of options. :(
But, ha ha, talking about LAYERS, check out Act II. I haven't quite ironed all this out yet, but by second year or so Kirk has come to terms with what happened and figures out how this whole Starfleet thing works (the first punishment occurred very early in his first year.) So he screws up again, not enough that he'll get expelled, but enough that his number of demerits would disqualify him from a test or course or whatever that he wants, so he suggests to Pike that they do it again.
Pike is like, "WTF NO. WE ARE NOT MAKING THIS A HABIT." but Kirk argues that he is being pragmatic by making a short-term, physical sacrifice in order to facilitate his long-term career goals. He is extremely persistent, and basically forces Pike to do something he really, really doesn't want to. So this time, Pike is pissed as hell whereas Kirk sails out of his office, feeling sore but accomplished.
I don't know if this is Kirk's demented revenge, if he's getting a high off the act (again, Daddy Issues ahoy!) or if he really is just making a logical decision. O.o
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Yes, that is it exactly, and thanks again for articulating what I was thinking when I haven't the thinky-thoughts to do it. It's not as temporary as a sexual roleplay or even drug-induced infantilism (which still has consent issues up to here) - it'll be years before a child can properly push back or say no, and there's the whole diminished-capacity-to-consent thing even if we aren't talking about the parents. Also, yeah, I think you were around that one time to see how I reacted to "sex" and "parents" even being in the same paragraph. XD
I think what I love most about it is that I see the relationship between the Doctor and the Brigadier as ambiguously parental in some cases, with Two as the younger child (whose arrival on Earth leads to the Brig moving up from Colonel to, well, Brigadier, and thus taking on more responsibilities as head of UNIT), Three as the teenager slowly growing up (complete with I-hate-you-I'm-never-speaking-to-you-again tantrums), Four as the young adult leaving home for the first time and building a life for himself again, and...I really don't know where this metaphor goes once you hit Five, Six, and Seven, though you could make a case for Mawdryn Undead as wish-fulfillment fantasy of restoring the memory of a father who's forgotten you, say out of age-related brain deterioration, and wow that was way darker than I wanted that metaphor to go, backpedaling now. Anyway, the infantilization gives me a chance to nicely literalize that dynamic and play on the Brig's feelings of responsibility toward the Doctor. And why is it always the dark stuff I never end up finishing? One of these days I'm just going to get sloppy drunk, finish up every "hey, can you tell I've been mainlining Silent Hill Let's Plays?" fic fragment that drifts on my hard drive, and post them before I sober up and realize what a bad idea that is.
Remember Wellard getting the snot caned out of him?
Well, yeah, but that was Age of Sail British military; I thought you were referring to more modern British military. I got a bit confused, sorry. :( And yeah, Europe tends to be a bit harsher on it's kids, I've noticed; though I'd argue that the US rolled out some pretty terrifying children's telly, I don't remember any of it getting as bleak as, say, Inferno or Horror of Fang Rock.
Except The Brave Freaking Little Toaster and its freaking nihilistic suicidal car song. Stupid movie.It takes him months before he can talk to Pike again, though, and IT'S SO SAD because Pike had the best of intentions and the worst of options.
Oh, man, and to have Kirk react to him like that after he did the only thing he could to help him...ouch. :( Also I LOVE Act II, since it plays into (movieverse) Kirk's later habit of planning on the fly and turning his situation to his advantage. And he'd definitely want to turn things back on Pike if he could, as some sort of...proof that he could, I guess? And we know he's something of an adrenaline freak from that scene in the movie where he *drives a car off a cliff* and all, so really, your version of Act II fits perfectly in with who New!Kirk is. And it sets up that competitive dynamic that I adore in an ambiguously-parental pairing, with neither completely having the advantage because even though Kirk's forced Pike's hand Pike's still the one administering the punishment so it's all ~complicated like. And and and basically this idea is a bit perfect and is slowly becoming my headcanon. And I was sorely lacking in headcanon for NuTrek, so I'm quite grateful for that. :D
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Also, doooo it. I'm tempted every once in a while to drunkfic but I suspect that I would end up falling asleep and not writing anything at all. :(
it sets up that competitive dynamic that I adore in an ambiguously-parental pairing
Ooh! Yes! That's a great way of describing it, thanks. My Sulu/Pike fic is going to have a lot of meditations on Kirk as the son surpassing or inheriting the power of the father, so the competitive dynamic is part "I can do better than you, nyaaah" and "Look what I did, aren't you proud of me?" And Pike's motivations for kicking Kirk's ass can be equally selfish and altruistic. E.g., "This is for your own good but damn if I'm not enjoying myself."
It's funny-- I'm glad my CP idea is becoming your headcanon, but I don't know how easily I can fit it into my "postable" headcanon (the rubble fic, the Pike/Sulu, and the Shiny!Gold!Chekov are all compatible) because of the amount of establishment it needs. but that's ok, i have a headcanon AU where all the alien planets are BDSM republics or somesuch and everyone takes a turn at beating the crap out of Kirk and sub!McCoy is floating around in here somewhere, being all mute and compliant and such. and at some point Kirk, McCoy, and Spock get stuck in a cave and Spock regresses to primitive!vulcaness and thinks that Kirk and McCoy are his children. i know this is silly and self-indulgent. Don't judge me! D:
IF YOU REALLY WANT SOME MORE HEADCANON FOR NU!TREK I CAN RAMBLE AT YOU ABOUT SNIPER!JOANNA AND CORPORATE EMBEZZLER!SAM KIRK AND THE AWESOME AWAY TEAM TRIO OF ENGINEER WINONA KIRK, LIEUTENANT PIKE (JUST A FEW YEARS OUT OF THE ACADEMY, DONCHA KNOW) AND SPECIAL ENSIGN JOYCELYN HAPRIN (AKA JOYCELYN MCCOY) AND ALL THE BADASS SHIT THEY GET UP TO, LIKE THAT ONE TIME PIKE WAS DEAD FOR THREE DAYS.
I THINK I NEED TO DO A CRIME AGAINST FANDOM POST AT SOME POINT.
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(No, drugged-out!Doctor still needed to be kept out of trouble - largely, the regression accentuates his already turbulent moods, so the verbal barbs and sarcasm become rants and outright sulking, the solid conviction that he's always right becomes a lot more pronounced, and the little woe-is-me-I-am-in-exile self-pity moments get a bit more needy and emotionally raw. At one point he's even okay with being cuddled, because even when you're raising a teen there are moments where they *don't* hate you, right? Also there was one scene in there where the Doctor stuck his tongue out at the Brig after being told not to do something but then I realized that didn't make any sense because poking the tongue out wouldn't have the same significance to an adolescent Time Lord as it would to an adolescent human and anyway I don't know if British kids even do that.)
I'm pretty sure I'd fall asleep trying to drunkfic too. I'm really sort of a boring drunk. I'd have to limit it to a galss of wine, and I'm not sure that's enough to make me post stuff I wouldn't post sober.
so the competitive dynamic is part "I can do better than you, nyaaah" and "Look what I did, aren't you proud of me?"
Yes! I love that in a father-son pairing, because it's two seemingly contrary emotions - rivalry and craving for attention/approval - that at root have a similar source (wanting to be better, whether for one's own benefit or the pleasure of another) directed at the same object, and the mental gymnastics required to accommodate those conflicting emotions. I've already mentioned that it worked really well in that fic snippet you posted, and I am ever so excited to see more of it, you have no idea. *jumps up and down*
I'm curious as to why the CP story would be incompatible (I almost typed incomplatible, which doesn't mean anything but sounds funny), though. It would require setup, yes, but I find setup and development makes a fic more interesting and satisfying. Does it not match up with the way Kirk/Pike is depicted in the rubble fic and the Sulu/Pike fic? Maybe you could make an authors note that the three fics you mentioned are of a similar continuity that the CP fic exists outside of.
You know Kirk likes it. McCoy, too. And DUDE YES MORE BDSM PLANETS. They are my secret pop-skiffy weakness except they're not a secret at all. Also I have no idea what paternal!primitive!Spock would be like but it would either be brilliant or hilarious. It's like a reverse Pon Farr, and as such makes a weird sort of sense.
...why would I judge you for self-indulgent silliness? I'm tl;dring at you about self-indulgent silliness in *two different comment threads* right now. Self-indulgent silliness is excellent and should be encouraged!
YES YES DO RAMBLE AT ME I WISH TO HEAR IT. Mainly because I know nothing about movie!verse Joycelyn and only what's onscreen for Winona and as such I am really, really looking for some good headcanon about them, especially headcanon where they get to be badass and awesome and have adventures and SNIPE THINGS HELLZ YEAH.
I PRACTICALLY DEMAND MORE CRIMES AGAINST FANDOM. FANDOM IS SO MUCH LESS INTERESTING WITHOUT THEM.
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"Squash and chocolate cake are incomplatible because the squash water gets the cake all soggy and blegh."
I'm thinking the CP story is incompatible mostly because I can't slip it in as a throwaway line the way I can do with everything else. Also, the CP stuff would, if not exactly transform their relationship, then intensify it and makes certain aspects very explicit. The Kirk/Pike I have set up right now is contentious but fairly carefree, I think. IDK. It probably fits better than I think it does, I'm just hesitant to admit to the world at large that I use CP as a framework for exploring character dynamics. Which is silly, because fandom is pervy and will not disapprove.
Paternal!Spock is mostly hilarious with a dash of terror thrown in. He's stronger and faster than both of them, and as part of the regression, he only speaks Vulcan (or a simple form of it, anyway.) So there's a lot of Kirk and Spock yelling at each other in languages they can't understand before Spock just drags Jim back into the cave and pops him on the butt. It's dangerous out there. Spock can't let his soft, pink babies go wandering around without supervision; that would be irresponsible.
Jim, obviously, has to keep pushing the boundaries because ONE DAY Spock will let him go explore the forest. He knows it. (The strategy works-- much like a parent finally acquiescing to a teenager's demands for more freedom-- and McCoy gives the facepalm of the century.)
Spock also gathers fruit to bring back and shows Jim how to crack it open. Also, maybe he fights grizzly bears?
(there's another plot-line that is much less funny!parental!hijinks and more, um, rape. :/ Let's just say Spock treats McCoy a little differently than he treats Jim.)
OKAY MAYBE I WILL DO THAT CRIMES AGAINST FANDOM POST. GOSH. SINCE YOU TWISTED MY ARM AND ALL. YOU JERK. :D
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Anyway, enough of that nonsense.
I'm thinking the CP story is incompatible mostly because I can't slip it in as a throwaway line the way I can do with everything else.
But does it have to exist in the same continuity as the other three? You could specify in the A/N that it doesn't exist in the same continuity as your other fic, if you feel the need to. That way you're removed of the obligation to even put it in as a throwaway line to anything else. Or you could write a ficlet specifically to write in the CP story as a throwaway line, as part of the same verse!
I'm just hesitant to admit to the world at large that I use CP as a framework for exploring character dynamics. Which is silly, because fandom is pervy and will not disapprove.
I would chide you and remind you that fandom has, in fact, produced fic pairing people with tribbles and seen fit to post it under its own pseud, but then I remembered that I have the exact same problem but replace "CP" with "dominatrices and shibari" and thus advice to that effect would be a touch hypocritical.
It's dangerous out there. Spock can't let his soft, pink babies go wandering around without supervision; that would be irresponsible.
I like this story already. :D Mostly because it provides opportunity for Spock to make angry parental faces at rebellious!Kirk and for McCoy to have to smack him and remind him that dammit, Sock isn't actually his parent, now stop acting like it and if you pull another stunt like that we'll both be sent to bed with no supper. Also, Spock fighting grizzly bears. Which is *awesome*.
Though given that this plotline seems at least mildly lighthearts, I'm curious as to how the secondary plotline fits into it, as it seems to be rather more serious. Poor McCoy. :(
TWISTING ARMS IS WHAT I DO BEST, DEAR. ESPECIALLY AS IT CONCERNS CRIMES AGAINST FANDOM.