stunt_muppet: (Sam is loved)
Add MemoryShare This Entry
Does it really make me that much of a bitter, cynical human being if I thought Romeo and Juliet worked better as a black comedy than as a tragedy?

I mean, it's a problematic reading, since some of the scenes are actually genuinely sad, but even by the standards of Shakespearean theater both the protagonists are ridiculously over the top, flinging themselves on the ground and threatening to kill themselves at the slightest provocation. The Nurse doesn't take Juliet seriously. The Friar doesn't take Romeo seriously except when he's trying to get him to not off himself. The proposition that Juliet marry Paris while her dead cousin's body's still cooling is so abrupt as to be absurd, as are the Rube Goldberg machinations of coincidence that lead to their deaths. The first time Romeo and Juliet meet, there's this very teasing romantic sonnet, followed by two passionate kisses - and then Juliet effectively saying "eh, that was okay, I guess." I tend to read that as her teasing him, but after the romantic language Romeo's just been talking it's quite funny. Even during the balcony scene, Romeo engages in this comically fancy language while Juliet is basically trying to get him to calm down and go away.

I don't think this means I'm dead to romance or anything. I mean, look at me, I write shipfic. Though tallying them up now I think I only wrote straight-up shipfic that ends with the two romantic leads still together, like, once. I adore Much Ado About Nothing and As You Like It; I think the romance between Orlando and Rosalind is stirring, as is the one between Benedick and Beatrice. Heck, I've been tempted to fic both Rosalind/Orlando and Rosalind/Celia. I squee over coupley cuteness and love happy endings as much as anyone, posibly more so. So why do I come off as such a cynic compared to the rest of the class?

There was some talk about how pure their affection was, and how despite all the hate in their families they were still capable of this passionate love. Which there is a point to, I suppose, but I always think back to James Joyce's The Dead - of course their affection is pure, they've known each other for like three days. They're still in the butterflies-in-the-stomach stage, and in most mature relationships you do actually grow out of that. But because they die before they can form a mature relationship, we see them in the feverish 'purity' of young, heady love. What real relationship can live up that kind of thrill, implied to be permanent since that's the last we see of it? What real person can live up to a dead man (which is where the short story comes in)? Frankly, I find it more romantic when I think two characters' relationship might last, like they might be friends in addition to being lovers, when they fight and squabble and get back to each other and actually talk to each other. Why is that so cynical?

I'm just puzzled, is all.

Mood:: 'confused' confused
There are 18 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] kayliemalinza.livejournal.com at 04:55pm on 29/10/2009
It's not cynical, it's realistic. Not realistic in the sense that "Oh, this is the best we can hope for" but realistic in the sense that "This kind of love happens all the time and it is the most successful love."

Personally, love-at-first-sight is one of the most damaging and distasteful literary motifs. I just don't get it.

So I'll be over here writing bff!slash, kthx.
 
posted by [identity profile] stunt-muppet.livejournal.com at 08:19pm on 29/10/2009
That's what I thought! Why idealize and pursue a type of romance that you have a 99% chance of never experiencing in real life? Frankly I'm a lot more hopeful about my future love life now than I was when I started buying into that "one person just for you" bullcrap. (It was a fortunately brief period.)

The thing is, I have never seen a literary work (or even pop fiction) that takes the love-at-first-sight thing seriously. Not even my old guilty-pleasure paranormal romances. Nobody buys into this kind of thing. I honestly thought nobody in the real world did either, but the real world continues to disappoint me at times.
 
posted by [identity profile] kindkit.livejournal.com at 05:18pm on 29/10/2009
Romeo and Juliet are teenage idiots. I never found them very sympathetic.

I think it's telling that Shakespeare takes the plot source for Romeo and Juliet (the story of Pyramus and Thisbe) and parodies it in A Midsummer Night's Dream.
 
posted by [identity profile] stunt-muppet.livejournal.com at 08:20pm on 29/10/2009
I can kind of understand the melodrama given that they *are* teenagers and that's what (some) teenagers do, and I sympathize with them more after this class (when we discussed that their petty, violent family background would lead them to act out even more than any other teenager would) than I did before, but calling it the greatest/truest love story of all time or anything like that is just missing the point entirely.
 
posted by [identity profile] elliptic-eye.livejournal.com at 11:16pm on 29/10/2009
And worth noting that the stories diverge to an extent that's clearly deliberate. Pyramus and Thisbe's relationship was explicitly based solely on conversation and developed over time; Romeo and Juliet invert the mode of connection (verbal to visual) and the timeline. And then he lampshades it in big, bold, loud letters from Mercutio at the beginning of the play. TL;DR, it's a tragedy, all right, but not the kind my high school English teacher insisted it was.
ext_40947: (Default)
posted by [identity profile] failegaidin.livejournal.com at 05:22pm on 29/10/2009
I totally agree with you on R&J, and I'm a hopeless romantic at heart. I love movies that are cheesy and romantic and over the top. But their love was not epic. It died before they could even see if they would annoy the living daylights out of each other.
 
posted by [identity profile] stunt-muppet.livejournal.com at 08:23pm on 29/10/2009
Exactly! They might not even have liked each other at all. I can buy it as a tragedy because (as we discussed in class) they're both so consumed by their feuding, violent families that they have little recourse besides extreme action and probably aren't the best-adjusted people on the planet to begin with, but not as a romance. They don't develop enough for that.
 
posted by [identity profile] airie-fairy.livejournal.com at 05:26pm on 29/10/2009
Most Shakespearean tragedy works better as black comedy, I find. Either he was doing it on purpose or he's not as skilled with a story as people have him down as. (I tend toward the latter opinion. He's got some damn good lines, but as to craft I think I've known better.)
 
posted by [identity profile] airie-fairy.livejournal.com at 05:35pm on 29/10/2009
I also think, while Romeo and Juliet are a bit melodramatic and Romeo in particular kind of a jackass, the ages should be taken into consideration, as well as the fact that their families have hated each other for no reason for generations -- I mean, while the romance is not as powerful as cliche insists that it is, it's probably a better course of action than the way their parents are behaving, not to mention the ending a consequence of the way their parents are behaving as much as it might be out of affection for each other. I may not be fond of the silly preteen romance, but I'm more likely to be actually disgusted by adults perpetuating a pointless feud that keeps getting bright young members of their own family killed, and then using that to further excuse said pointless feud rather than getting a freakin' clue. And if Romeo/Juliet's romance wasn't so tangled up in the mess their parents made, maybe it wouldn't have felt like a life or death situation -- maybe it's all more of a comment on the feud than it is on lurve.

It's still a weaker story/execution than it could've been, though.
 
posted by [identity profile] stunt-muppet.livejournal.com at 08:30pm on 29/10/2009
For your first point, I tend not to see the plot as the point of the tragedy, because just like the comedies a lot of them were adaptations of stock plots or historical plots. They're more about the prose and the characters, and the prose in King Lear is (to me anyway) wrenching.

I do have more sympathy for Romeo and Juliet now than I did before I attended this particular class session, because their family backgrounds are really kind of awful - both their families are petty and violent, half the city wants them dead even before the romance, Juliet is going to get married off at thirteen which even then was on the young side, and they're both, in fact, teenagers and prone to drama anyway. They're probably not the best-adjusted people on the planet from the get-go, and part of the drive behind the romance may be that it's a way out of their dead-end family life, something they can assume some degree of control over.

Calling it an epic love story is still missing the point, but I can buy it a bit better as a tragedy now.
 
posted by [identity profile] airie-fairy.livejournal.com at 11:32pm on 29/10/2009
King Lear is probably the only Shakespeare play, of any genre, I've been able to read with any solemnity. I love it.

I should really reread Romeo & Juliet with that perspective of the tragedy of their broader circumstances in mind, because I have all these explanations ready, but I haven't opened the thing in forever.
 
posted by [identity profile] stunt-muppet.livejournal.com at 12:30am on 30/10/2009
I think it's because we're not as overexposed to Lear as we are to Hamlet, Romeo and Juliet, Macbeth, or any of those. Part of the reason it's hard to read Hamlet with the solemnity it needs is that every single line of it has been quoted out of context six point two million times. It dilutes the impact somewhat.
 
posted by [identity profile] airie-fairy.livejournal.com at 03:18am on 30/10/2009
And here I thought it was because everybody dies in the most absurd possible ways without cease for five acts.

I love Hamlet. *dies laughing*
 
posted by [identity profile] stunt-muppet.livejournal.com at 02:03am on 31/10/2009
...I liked Hamlet. Like, as a tragedy.

I'll get me coat.
rainshaded: Livia from I, Claudius (Ian/Barbara not now)
posted by [personal profile] rainshaded at 11:40pm on 29/10/2009
I always gape at people who gush about the romance and it being the perfect love story. Romeo and Juliet are melodramatic teenage idiots, who fall in lust at first sight and are allowed to take things too far. I never got what was different about Romeo's love for Juliet from his love for Rosalind, other than the fact that she didn't completely ignore him.

That's cynical? I would like to order one Proud to be an Idealistic Cynic badge, please.
 
posted by [identity profile] stunt-muppet.livejournal.com at 12:38am on 30/10/2009
I guess it depends on whether you really buy into the One True Love At First Sight Tropes, and I just...so, so emphatically don't. And I don't think I should because it never happens in real life and why should I aspire to something I'm never going to have?

As I said above, I think there are ways to read Romeo and Juliet as a more domestic tragedy, in which the protagonists are seriously maladjusted by their violent squabbling families and are desperate to have something in their lives that doesn't revolve around the feud, but as a love story? It doesn't work and I don't think it's supposed to.
 
posted by [identity profile] neadods.livejournal.com at 01:51am on 30/10/2009
The only flaw in this intriguing theory - is that the Nurse does egg Juliet on, or at least protect her.

Unless the Nurse is TRYING to ruin Juliet? Now *there's* an idea. The nurse is pushing this thing with Juliet as far as it can go, well past the realm of Juliet being marriage-worthy. Maybe the nurse doesn't secretly want to help the young lovers, but to ruin the Capulets?

Now I've got this whole interpretation going on in my head where it's a really dark thing where the Nurse and Friar are in love with each other and they're both sick of the feud and so they're egging each other on in how far they can mess up those kids.
 
posted by [identity profile] stunt-muppet.livejournal.com at 02:07am on 31/10/2009
I think it's possible for the Nurse to goad Juliet in her marriage without taking her seriously - if she did take her seriously, she wouldn't immediately tell her to go after the Prince when Romeo was banished. But I do like the idea of the Nurse secretly trying to end the feud in the most brutal and sudden way possible, a way that the Montagues and Capulets can't ignore...

July

SunMonTueWedThuFriSat
        1
 
2
 
3
 
4
 
5
 
6
 
7
 
8
 
9
 
10
 
11
 
12
 
13
 
14
 
15
 
16
 
17
 
18
 
19
 
20
 
21
 
22
 
23
 
24
 
25
 
26 27
 
28
 
29
 
30
 
31